Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Exploring Distance Between Mental Health Professionals and Neurodivergent Community Pt. 2, with Elianna Gnoffo

Hosted by Amanda Antell. Produced by the Let's Talk! Podcast Collective. Audio editing and transcription by Carrie Cantrell & Chrispy Jones. Web Copy by Nic Meza Honea. Webhosting by Eugene Holden. Visual editing by Ryan Vail and Erik Wideman.

Bridging The Gap in Understanding

Article by Nicolas Meza, Edited by Carrie Cantrell

DISCLAIMER: The information provided within this article is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for professional medical advice. This article and connected broadcast is in no way an endorsement or recommendation of the services discussed herein. For professional advice accessible to PCC students and staff, please request counseling services and other resources from the PCC Counseling team. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a volunteer Crisis Counselor from the national organization Crisis Text Line. SAMHSA’s National Helpline is a free, confidential, 24/7, 365-day-a-year treatment referral and information service (in English and Spanish) for individuals and families facing mental and/or substance use disorders.1-800-662-HELP (4357)

Is therapy right for you?

Neurodivergence exists on a spectrum and spans many experiences. With this understanding, there are many ways that individuals can approach their healthcare needs. This can range from medication to support groups to psychiatry or counseling or much more. To help you find what kind of care would be right for you, we have put together a list of indicators and resources for our readers to learn how to approach the topic of mental health care in an empowered and positive way.

To figure out which therapy might help you best, ask yourself: what are you working with? Do you have depression? PTSD? Autism? ADHD? BPD? Dissociative Disorder? OCD? ED? These are a few of the many diagnoses out there. Keep in mind that you don’t even need an official diagnosis to seek support. General counseling is available for crisis support and overall stress management.

What type of therapy is right for you?

There is an idea that there is only one type of therapy. Often what comes to mind is the traditional sit down with someone and talk. But while perhaps effective, this is only one of many different therapeutic methods, each with its own approach and required qualifications. Below is a list of therapies that offer distinct experiences for the individual based on interests and needs. This list is by no means exhaustive or an endorsement of any kind. Seek advice from a licensed care team when deciding what type of therapy is right for you.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, better known as CBT, is usually practiced in a one-on-one session that tackles problems that can be found in the present moment and focuses on the client’s cognitive distortions. Clients will discuss life situations and difficult feelings to identify what struggles they have and learn to change and redirect their thought patterns and reactions to stress.

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy

Known also as DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has a focus on what is called emotion regulation skills. This is the practice of learning to tolerate extreme distress, learning to regulate emotions, and working on communication to better help others understand one’s struggles. DBT can be practiced in one-on-one or in group sessions.

Art Therapy

Art Therapy is a way of expressing all of your emotions through artistic means. This can be drawing, painting, coloring, or collaging. Using these kinds of art helps you find old memories and find a new way to process the conditions one is having.

Animal Assisted Therapy

Using any animals ranging from horses to dogs, to birds to rabbits, and more. Animal-assisted therapy can help combat loneliness and boost social support with both humans and animals alike. Bonding with an animal is said to boost self-worth and trust, help with emotional stabilization and improve self-regulation. One added bonus is that depending on the animal, Animal Assisted Therapy can also get people to be more physically active

Bibliotherapy

Bibliotherapy is the practice of associating books and other literature into your therapy. Bibliotherapy is used as a means to help someone recognize that they are not the only person experiencing their struggles. On average there are four stages to bibliotherapy.

• Identification: You connect to a character in the book you are reading
• Catharsis: You experience and relate to the character’s emotions in a safe and removed way
• Insight: You recognize the character’s struggles to your own and use think of decisions and actions to help the character and you
• Universalization: You realize you are not alone, and you recognize others have struggled with you and you now have the means to improve yourself.

Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy

ERP is a tricky therapy. It involves exposing oneself to stimuli that generally invoke fear or extreme anxiety in an effort to, in the end, learn therapeutic techniques and prevent harsh or violent responses.

Music Therapy

Music Therapy, as its name suggests, utilizes music to help people manage physical pain, reduce stress, and even complement treatments for problems with cancer and dementia. This happens because music has the ability to raise someone’s mood, reduce anxiety, and alleviate depression.

This is just a short list of many different styles of therapy. We found our information on PsychologyToday.com.

What does “Good Therapy” look like?

No matter the choice of therapy you choose, therapy will largely rely on the relationship between you and your therapist or practitioner. Elianna and Amanda offered these considerations.

• Are your values shared with your therapist?

Consider what values you have. Do you come from a religious background? Are you liberal? Queer? More conservative? Elianna describes a negative experience from her past when her values and her counselors did not match up.

 “I was also getting bullied because I wasn’t a Christian and she wore a cross and she was the school counselor for my grade at this middle school, which had about a thousand children per grade.” 

However today, as an adult, she is more aware of her choices.

“ ‘cause there’s good doctors, there’s bad doctors. And the whole thing with, you know, therapy is you need to find someone you gel with. So it’s like you shop around.”

• Do you each have the same priorities for your therapy sessions?

What are you hoping to get out of your therapy? A diagnosis? A prescription? Are you looking for a group or community? Amanda Antell describes her requirements for mental health professionals.

“Listen to what I’m saying and take what I’m saying seriously is all I kind of need from a therapist. Being willing to help actually improve my life through whatever therapeutic strategies we can come up with, you know? Like work with me as a team kind of thing, you know?”

• Are your concerns being addressed?

Describe what your idea of a healthy relationship is. Is there a safe space for you to be? Is there a place for you to build trust, mutual respect, and kindness? Think about it as Elliana puts it,

“There’s only so much that therapy can do for you if you’re not in an environment that’s conducive for peace and stability and getting the help that you need.” 

In Summary

The lists provided hopefully will assist you in better understanding yourself and what type of therapy would best benefit you. Keep in mind the first step is to talk to a professional and your support network. For counseling resources at Portland Community College go to pcc.edu/counseling.

Let’s Talk: Autism

“Exploring Distance Between Mental Health Professionals and Neurodivergent Community Pt. 2, with Elianna Gnoffo”

What type of therapy is right for you? Elianna and Amanda discuss their individual experiences.
Content Warning: Suicide.

Hosted by: Amanda Antell

Guest Speakers: Elianna Gnoffo

Produced By: Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective

Released on: 2/16/2024

Exploring Distance between Mental Health Professionals and Neurodivergent Communities, Pt. 2, with Elianna Gnoffo

Transcript Edited by Chrispy Jones & Carrie Cantrell.

Pre-show Introduction and Disclaimer

Nic Meza Honea: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College, PCC Foundation, or XRAY.FM

We broadcast biweekly on our home website, pcc.edu/dca, on Spotify, and on XRAY 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM.

Amanda’s Introduction

Amanda Antell: Welcome to another episode of Let’s Talk Autism. My name is Amanda, and I’m the host, facilitator, and producer of this series. Today we are continuing the exploration of the distance and distrust between mental health professionals and neurodivergent community members. For those of you who are sensitive to suicide or suicidal ideation, please consider this your trigger warning as these topics will be mentioned.

I was joined today by Elianna as we compare our views on mental health professionals and how our experiences shaped these. One interesting topic that came up are the professional and social responsibilities mental health professionals have, not only as providers, but also as the middlemen or interpreters between neurodivergent community members and the general public.

I hope you enjoy this conversation and explore another facet of the topic as a whole. So thank you for joining me today, Elianna, as we discuss the intricacies and distance and essentially the bad blood between mental health professionals and neurodivergent communities.

Elianna’s Introduction

Elianna Gnoffo: All right. My name is Elianna. My pronouns are, she/they, I’m Demifem Genderfluid. I have ADHD and I have PTSD.

I have a mild-ish dissociative disorder, and my comorbidity with ADHD has been depression. So…

The Diagnostic Journey

Amanda Antell: Thank you. So my name is Amanda. I use she/her pronouns. I’m currently finishing up an animal science degree at Oregon State, so I can apply to vet school next year. I have autism and as far as I know, I don’t have any other underlying neurological conditions, although I’m pretty certain I do have anxiety at this point, unfortunately.

So how long ago were you diagnosed or are you currently on another diagnostic journey?

Elianna Gnoffo: I’m not currently on a diagnostic journey. I got my ADHD diagnosis about five years ago. I had a really bad mental health collapse while attending OSU. I had, like, a psychosis episode because of just how badly stressed out I was.

And I was really badly depressed after that and I needed psychiatric help. [I] then was recommended my current psychiatrist through a friend of the family. And in my interviews with her, uh, she was like, oh, you have ADHD, don’t you? Here please take this test. And turns out I’ve got ADHD and it’s been pretty accurate. And the memes describing ADHD have been hitting, and it’s been good. So yeah, I’ve, I’m not currently on any journeys of diagnosis.

Amanda Antell: Yeah, so I was diagnosed fairly recently at age 31. And , my diagnostic journey I don’t think is particularly interesting, but because it’s, in the sense that’s very common with a lot of women and people raised as women who are autistic or have ADHD.

So my mom noticed very early on, I was very different when I was a child because I would just get really intensely interested in things and would go Space Cadets. So the first time someone, a professional, quote unquote, assessed me, and I don’t really know what their job description was in the Beaverton school district, honestly, I had to have been four or five because this was a little before kindergarten and this guy apparently tried to assess me in some way, but apparently I did so bad, he told my parents I would never learn to read. My mom never trusted the Beaverton school district after that , with potentially putting labels on me. And I’m very grateful she did not. But she took me to three different experts trying to get a diagnosis by really, really trying.

But they just said because I was so high-functioning, they just did not wanna give me, give her a diagnosis. They didn’t wanna go against the common belief that autism did not happen in girls, unless if it was super severe at the time. So, in fact, they told my mom that they didn’t wanna put a label on me and that I would grow out of it again.

Worst thing ever to say to a parent who has a child with ADHD and autism. So I wasn’t diagnosed until my therapist suggested I seek out diagnosis and the psychologist literally diagnosed me in like three sessions and she said that she would’ve diagnosed me on the first session. But it’s standard procedure for there to be three reassessment sessions.

Mental Health experiences

And I just kind of answered number three actually with myself. But what were the circumstances that led to your diagnosis or what made you seek a diagnosis? How would you describe your experiences with mental health professionals during this process?

Elianna Gnoffo: So my current psychiatrist is a really great lady. She also has ADHD, so she’s very sympathetic and has the ability to empathize because she’s been living with ADHD for a while, so she’s really great. I don’t have issues with her at all. in the past, before I was diagnosed, just like, we’ll probably get into this later with the other questions, but it’s just like, being a young child who like being part of it was being, you know, assigned female at birth and being raised as a girl and it’s like, oh, girls don’t get ADHD but another part of it was, I’m freaking out and I am in suffering so much, but I dunno how to describe my suffering or what I need to have fixed. So it was just chaos. So I have sympathy for the mental health professionals because I wasn’t able to give fully accurate information because I was a child of what would be needed to help me or diagnose or fix problems. So that was part of it.

Amanda Antell: It’s kind of interesting you say that you’re sympathetic to the mental health professional side. ’cause in my situation, I actually am very angry at the mental health professionals who assessed me, quote unquote, because I think my suspicion is that they knew I was autistic. They just didn’t want to go against the grain at the time, which was the fact that it was that common belief that autism just didn’t happen in girls unless if it was super severe.

So I have the opposite. My stance is you are a trained professional, you have a service to provide. You did not do your job, and you honestly screwed over a lot of my childhood by not doing your job. And you put my mom in like this, this belief that it was on her to make me normal.

And that caused a lot of tension between me and my mom for a long time in my childhood, because she would just, in, in her mind, she had to try to make me normal. She had to try to make me get along with people and like that neurotypical context. And again, that really screwed me over and it caused a lot of mental health issues in me that I think I have now.

And it caused a lot of trust issues in me that I have now. . So I, again, I do not have any sympathy towards mental health professionals at all in those contexts because we are relying on them to help us.

Elianna Gnoffo: Right. My situation was very complicated. It’s, it’s a mixed bag for me. I’m very, it’s like what you went through was awful. I’ve had terrible people. Like I had school counselors who were not very sympathetic to me, , which we could probably get into later with some of the questions. It’s so, it’s like when I was younger, I was just constantly overstimulated by things.

It’s like I am with the rejection sensitivity dysphoria. So it’s like, you know when you’re different or a weird kid and you’re getting bullied or you’re getting thrown into this or that, and then you have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, so you’re overreacting and it’s like no one really knows how to help you because you can’t get diagnosed.

And then it’s like, like things are getting offered to you of like, well, is it this thing? Is it that thing? And you’re just like, I guess, ’cause you don’t know. I didn’t know at the time what to ask for or what was really going on. And I didn’t wanna say, I don’t know, because I know I needed help, but I didn’t know what help to get because I was a child and…. Yeah, it was just suffering. And it was like, it was a point in middle school where when I was getting bullied and it’s like, I can’t just walk away. You have to stay with the group or you’ll get in trouble. And I didn’t wanna get in trouble. And so it was just like, I would just kind of start playing dead in a way.

And it was like, I didn’t wanna say that I was actively choosing to play dead. It was like I was actually having a medical situation because that was the only way I was gonna be respected and be given the opportunity to leave. Because then otherwise you would just be told to stop freaking out. So it’s, it was that sort of situation where.

I’m running into issues and I’m suffering and I dunno what to ask for. So I need to kind of make something up to get help for something. So it’s like, I was like, it, it definitely muddled the diagnosis because I didn’t know what to ask for. I didn’t know how to properly describe what I was going through.

So there’s only so much that therapy can do for you if you’re not in an environment that’s conducive for peace and stability and getting the help that you need.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. I know that you mentioned like some people that were pretty awful too. And I do wanna point out with this, with number three. it does specifically ask how would you describe your experiences with mental health professionals during this process? So it’s like, if you don’t wanna answer that, that’s fine. You don’t have to by any means. But I just wanted to give you the opportunity to talk more on that if you wanted here.

Elianna Gnoffo: Right. So it’s, um, like right now, I’m in a great place. I love my psychiatrist. I’m in a wonderful, beautiful place right now as an adult that can use my words and have a psychiatrist who has ADHD herself. So currently I’m in a great space in terms of mental health professionals, but previously it’s been bad. at OSU I actually did try to see if I did have ADHD and I was stimming hard, like I was distracted. I was playing with the fidget toys and I was looking at that the whole time while I was talking to this lady who you have information on, probably, I don’t remember her name, but you definitely have a backstory with her, and she said, oh no, you don’t have ADHD. Even though I was pretty blatantly fidgeting with everything and showing ADHD symptoms. And then in seventh grade when I was having like the playing dead seizure pass out situation I was also getting bullied because I wasn’t a Christian and she wore a cross and she was the school counselor for my grade at this middle school, which had about a thousand children per grade.

And there was only one counselor per grade. So she was telling me that I was making things up and she didn’t believe me. And it was just a really awful hellish time. I couldn’t complete the term because of just how suicidal and depressed I became at that time. And it was, I was developing my dissociative disorder.

Like I could feel it, like starting of, like, I almost developed multiple personalities is how I described it. But I do have a dissociative disorder, so it was just, the stress was really bad. I couldn’t sleep. I was having a hard time with everything. So it’s like, it’s middle school and puberty with not properly taking care of mental health issues.

And during this era, because girls couldn’t get ADHD and they only had anxiety. Youth and adolescents were getting medications that they shouldn’t have been getting. Like I was on Prozac and Zoloft and a couple of other medications that I tried out, but apparently it turns out you’re not supposed to give those medications to adolescents, and they didn’t know that at the time that that wasn’t something you should give to adolescents.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. Yeah. I’m sorry that happened to you.

The Lunch Incident

Elianna Gnoffo: It was bad and it was the whole, you know, no tolerance, bullying. But also if the teacher didn’t witness it, then it didn’t happen. And Georgia is a state that you can’t record people without their knowing consent. So it’s like I couldn’t record people bullying me.

There was a really bad incident where during lunch it had gotten out where I had an argument with people about Christianity and if God was real ’cause I was in my, edgy atheist, a span of time. and it got out to the rest of the class. And when we got back in the classroom, our teacher was out in the hallway managing hallway chaos and the other students got up and started chanting, killed the atheist, and someone shoved a cross in my face. And then of course, because I’m having mental health issues, it’s like, oh, you’re possessed by demons. So it was not a great time. And, but because the teacher didn’t see it, it didn’t happen. And they can’t prosecute just on my, you know, they can’t do anything about it just because I said something happened.

So, yeah, it was, it was a rough time. It was not a great time.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. That’s, if it makes you feel any better, I would’ve started speaking in tongues.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. It’s like, screw it. And I can’t redeem myself. It only gets worse from here, baby. I’m taking it all down with me.

Amanda Antell: And honestly, it sounds like you were the only one not part of a cult in that story. That just sounds very cultish.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s middle school. Everyone’s acting like a jackass.

Amanda Antell: I know. And talk about like that whole Christian thing. And like till the atheist thing, it’s like, yeah, that sounds very cultish.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. And then it’s like, there was a cot I could lay in, like go to the nurse’s office. If I was like able to play dead and just like needed a break, I could go there. Someone had written Jesus Loves You on the cot, on the walls next to the cot, and it was just great. Fantastic.

Amanda Antell: My response would’ve been, Satan gives great head though.

Elianna Gnoffo: Oh man. I, it’s like I never remembered to bring a pencil with me.I was just like, I want this to end. I was-

Amanda Antell: Like, I’m just saying, I have my edgy days too, so don’t feel bad.

Elianna Gnoffo: Oh yeah. Oof. Yeah.

Amanda Antell: I was kind of a jackass though. I was one of those combative, argumentative types that would just take people down with me.

Elianna Gnoffo: Oh yeah, it’s, it’s not a great time being in middle school. And then it was like the-

Amanda Antell: No middle school’s awful.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah, that’s the whole thing. It’s like if your time in middle school didn’t suck, your life is gonna be so waywardly different. It’s like the whole thing that middle school needs to suck really bad because then it doesn’t matter, whatever kind of horrendous stuff you go through later in life, you can at least say, at least I’m not in middle school.

Feelings on professional treatment

Amanda Antell: Yeah. So how would you say your overall feelings or experiences with, with mental health professionals? Okay, let me re-ask this question. What are your overall, feelings or experiences with, or how mental health professionals treat autistic ADHD in other neurodivergent communities?

Does it influence your own feelings or interactions with current or previous providers you’ve had?

Elianna Gnoffo: So like they’ve gotten more information I. As time has gone on, there’s been better studies. There have been more like autistic, ADHD and other, neurodivergent, people who have become doctors who have been able to change things like being gay used to be part of the DSM five, but then it’s like it changed.

So I know that things have changed from when I was younger and needed better help. , so that’s a part of it. I know things have probably changed and then things have been rough for me. So I don’t wanna say that my past is going to completely be the future or what everything is now. so then it all depends on the doctor.

’cause there’s good doctors, there’s bad doctors. And the whole thing with, you know, therapy is you need to find someone you gel with. So it’s like you shop around. You try to see if you find someone you gel with, and unfortunately there’s not enough mental health care providers at this time. It’s like, because of our American system, you need someone who’s gonna be in network. So you can afford it. You need someone who’s taking on new patients. You need someone who you also gel with. So it’s, you have to meet all these different requirements, which is difficult, but it’s not necessarily that therapy is the issue as much as it is accessibility to therapy.

At least now you know.

Amanda Antell: My semi feelings about this question are kind of reflective of yours or just kind of the same as yours, where it’s the sense that it used to be pretty bad for the longest time, where it’s like people who are autistic were institutionalized. We were put through electroshock therapy, lobotomized ’cause people had this idea of curing us. From my personal experiences how I interact with mental health professionals kind of allows me to have a context for ignorance with mental health professionals and surrounding us. But I wouldn’t say I automatically distrust mental health professionals.

Amanda’s therapy experience

My mom first took me to a therapist when I was in middle school ’cause I was getting so intensely bullied. This woman was just… nothing bad about her, she wasn’t abusive and she, I wouldn’t say she dismissed me, but she was just sitting there. It’s like I was, I might as well have been talking to a wall.

She just did not talk back to me…. I just didn’t understand what the point of this was and just why I was wasting my time in that office. And my other experience with therapy that comes to mind in my childhood was when my parents were getting a divorce. So in the state of Oregon, and I’m not sure if this holds true still, honestly, ’cause this was a long time ago, obviously. But when a couple goes through a divorce, especially if there’s a child involved, they have to go through court mediated counseling, just so things stay amicable between the couple, if that makes sense.

So part of that is obvious. So part of that is I would, I saw like a child psychologist and that as well, but this woman I thought was a total idiot. This woman talked to me like in this weird high pitched voice, like you’d see like on a kid show I was almost half expecting her to bring out sock puppets with me or something. I was like 12 at the time, by the way.

Elianna Gnoffo: Ew.

Amanda Antell: So it’s like, and she was treating me like I was five,

Elianna Gnoffo: very condescending and not age appropriate.

Amanda Antell: I will say that having group therapy sessions with my parents was very cathartic. ’cause I could just rant and rage without fear of being attacked. So that was cathartic, that was really empowering. And there was, and it was actually pretty satisfying seeing that they couldn’t do anything to me in front of a professional. But anyways, so that was my previous experiences with therapy before an adult.

But it’s like when I finally got found a therapist for myself, one that actually worked for me, I found the experience to be a lot different and my current therapist is very good. And works really well with me. She checks in with me and develops like life strategies with me on how to deal with different issues.

And she, again, she was the one who referred me to the psychologist who diagnosed me with autism.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah, not all therapists are built the same.

Fear of Treatment

Amanda Antell: Many autistic ADHD and other neuro divergent individuals feel reluctant or even fearful, seeking out mental health professionals for therapeutic purposes. Why do you think this is?

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, it’s that whole thing of I’ve had a bad experience before and I’m afraid of bad experiences Again. This isn’t something that’s isolated to just therapy.

It’s something that can happen a lot with, physical doctors or, even non-medical situations. So it’s, I definitely feel sympathy. I’ve had that issue when I was considering going on medication again for my ADHD to focus better in classes because of my previous bad experiences with Prozac and Zoloft that I wasn’t supposed to be on at the age that I was on them and how just awful they made me feel.

But the medications that I have now, I use them when I need them and it’s great. So it’s, steadily building confidence, but it’s, yeah… I absolutely understand when people have had bad experiences and they’re very afraid of it moving forward and it’s like, I hope that these people can get the help that they need and can hopefully heal as much as they can from the bad situations that they’ve had.

I think about my parents not wanting to go to therapy because of just like the culture they grew up in, you know, being boomers and even my grandmother who had a really awful childhood, but she is never going to go to therapy ’cause it’s like she has this thing, it’s like, oh, it’s all in your head.

And then, you know, back when my parents were young and when she was around and my grandmother was around, it’s just like, you went to a place and people didn’t talk about you again. And really awful things happened to you at those places legally because that’s what they thought was supposed to be best for you.

So it’s like, yeah, I have so much sympathy for especially older generations because of the stigma and you know, just what was actually happening at the time. But I do wish that, you know, I wish that they would learn that things are different now generally, and that they would get the help they need.

Amanda Antell: So what I would say about this one is, it goes back to what I said before about the content, the historical context of it, where it’s like historically autistic and really any neurodivergent community member has never really been treated well by the mental health professionals.

Where it’s like there is like this fear of labels being used against you and there are like significant stigmas and it’s kind of like what you said, there are specific family cultures. Well, not specific, every family culture is different, but it goes back to how mental health professionals have not only treated us, but actually project us to the public.

And that’s kind of what makes me angry with mental health professionals sometimes, because the general public is relying on them to kind of explain what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling, how to behave, how to interact with us, rather than just talking to us directly. And to me, the professional mental health community has done very little to kind of dissuade that.

They’ve done very little to say “Hey, talk to people who are actually autistic. Talk to people with ADHD, talk to people with dissociative personality disorder or PTSD or whatever to actually figure out what they need from you and how best to support them.”

Age of TikTok

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. It’s the age of the TikTok where there’s certain kind of people on social media who [act like they] have psychology degrees, whether they actually do or not, who make very sensationalist content about mental health.

And then there’s like, there was this one like Buzzfeed video where a psychiatrist was breaking down mental health stuff in movies. And she very professionally said that the movie Split got it all wrong, but I wish that she went harder on it. And there are like, good content creators who are also psychiatrists who much more kindly break down what actual mental health issues are, especially with the scary mental health problems of, schizophrenia or anything like that, where they actually break down, “here’s what it’s most likely going to show itself and here’s how this piece of media got it wrong.”

Those voices are unfortunately not the ones making movies. These are unfortunately, the people who are not making shows when they really should. Like I’m so angry that they made the show Ratchet, which is just the Girl Boss arc for Nurse Ratchet from One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, who is the avatar of medical abuse. What M. Knight Shamylan keeps doing with his movies of villainizing mental health disorders… Let’s see here. What else was there? It’s frustrating what’s happening and how there isn’t really much accurate representation for people. Oh, the other one for dissociative disorder was this movie recently that was made, called Sensor that came out of the UK.

And the thing that keeps happening with dissociative disorders is that people keep going, oh, “you’re just hiding, like this secret murder personality.” And it’s just, no, no, it’s not. Stop doing this. It’s really frustrating watching neurotypical people, largely, keep turning mentally ill people into movie monsters, and it’s just heartbreaking and it hurts.

I keep thinking of this line from The Elephant Man… “I am not an animal. I am a human being.” And we’re real people, and it just sucks so much to have to keep seeing people make our lives worse and make money off it.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. And like I said, the professional mental health community has done very little to dissuade that, and they very rarely even get involved in these conversations.

And even, and the ones who do unfortunately do have agendas, like I’m, like any mental health professional that supports autism Speaks, for example, I guarantee you has an agenda. They already have a lot of prejudices against autistic people and they’re getting money from Autism Speaks, or there’s some kind of partnership there.

It just really sucks that the professional mental health community as a whole isn’t doing more. I guess that’s where my, my feelings about this question kind of come in. The fact that they know there’s a problem, they’re just not really doing anything to help us.

So it’s like, how are we supposed to trust that you care about us? Why would we trust you? I don’t know. I’m probably simplifying it, but that’s kind of where I’m at with that. And saying that though, it’s like, I do have a therapist who is very good, who is willing to learn from me.

And to me that’s pretty huge when a therapist isn’t going to dismiss your feelings based on what they’ve been told versus what they’re hearing from you.

Elianna Gnoffo: Right.

Does Talk Therapy Work?

Amanda Antell: So for question six, do you think standard talk therapy works for autistic or ADHD patients? Why or why not?

Elianna Gnoffo: It depends on the person. People keep trying to go like, “oh, cognitive behavioral therapy,” like, that’s great. And it’s like, that doesn’t work for me, so please stop recommending that to me because it doesn’t work for me.

Maybe EMDR is better for certain people. There’s a whole bunch of tools to use. So don’t just use like a hammer to try to fix everything. Like use hammers on nails. Don’t try to use a hammer on, trying to fix a loose screw, like that’s not what you use a hammer for. ’cause then you’re just gonna make things worse. So it depends on the person, cause ADHD and autism, they take many different forms. It depends on what your specific problems are that maybe talk therapy might help.

It’s about learning tools to help. Work better in society and its situations. So there’s only so much that therapy can do for you if you’re not in a situation where you have the agency to make things better for yourself. I saw this comic recently where it’s like this person is asking to wear headphones at work or at school because they have autism and have that kind of auditory sensory issue.

And the character that’s representing their work at their school says, no, you can’t do that without a official diagnosis. And then they get an official diagnosis and it’s like, oh, now we’re gonna strip you of your agency and it’s gonna be harder for you to get married or have children or adopt, or yada yada yada, but you can finally wear your headphones now.

So it’s, it’s really frustrating. And so it’s like there’s only so much therapy can do for you depending on what your outside, you know, living circumstances are. But therapy talk therapy can help for some people. Maybe it won’t be as helpful for others.

Amanda Antell: Yeah, and that’s kind where I’m at with it too.

Like the participants so far have really disliked talk therapy. It just doesn’t work for them. But for me it’s like talk therapy allows me to just rant , and be angry. For me, that’s very cathartic. But my therapist again also comes up with strategies and just paths forward. And to me that’s a lot of what talk therapy misses.

You have to do more than just let people rant. Otherwise , you’re not going to improve your life. It’s like, what is the path forward? What is the path to healing? How do we connect to the inner child? How do we work through this trauma? Like regardless of what kind of therapist you have and what purpose you’re seeing them for, it has to be a therapy style that works.

And I think that kind of just goes back to what you said where it just really depends on the individual and, and it just depends on what the individual needs from a therapist to improve their life. And maybe improving their life is the bad way to say it. But to me, if you’re not looking to improve or heal something it’s like, why? Why are you going there? And maybe that’s too critical. Maybe that’s too harsh.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, sometimes it’s an exploratory thing. It’s, you know, you’re going to someone who has some knowledge and you’re trying to figure out what you need.

So for some people it’s healing previous wounds because you were different and you weren’t in a place that was very kind to people who were different and you got hurt by doing that.

So that’s healing inner child and there’s, learning tools to try to move forward and have an easier life.

Mental Health Qualifications

Amanda Antell: So for number seven, Do you think the professional mental health community, like the American Psychological Association is well versed in neurodivergent issues? Why or why not?

Elianna Gnoffo: So, I don’t have a lot of information about the APA. It’s like, I think with any, you know, organization, it’s formed by people.

So it depends on what those people are doing. And as we’ve discussed before, things are generally getting better, but it depends on what people are doing. I’m not very well versed or knowledgeable about what the current behaviors or actions of the APA have been. So I can’t speak well on it.

Amanda Antell: I think this kind of relates back to earlier questions, but I would say no. I would definitely say no to this question. And the reason I say that is because the mental health professionals I have talked with are very, very oblivious to issues in the autism community.

Like the controversy surrounding high-functioning versus low functioning. For example, my therapist had no idea that she had absolutely no idea. That was the thing with the autistic community. I’ve been working with CAPS a lot at Oregon State for the autism project I’ve been working on there, and they were not aware either, like three different therapists were just completely unaware of that.

And I guessing DAS [SIC: DSM] was pretty unaware of that too. And it’s like they come up with different ways to categorize autism diagnoses. The current one was like level one, level two, or level three. I think. I might be wrong about that, but I, my issue with that is it’s the same issue with high functioning versus low functioning as well, or high needs versus low needs.

You’re applying broad categorizations for a huge, a huge population of people. You’re gonna have people who aren’t gonna fit into any category strictly, and they’re just gonna fall through the cracks and it’s just gonna result in a lot of people not talking to them about what they actually need. You are just giving people repeatedly excuses to apply blanket treatment when that should not be the case. And again, it goes back to, quite frankly, mental health professionals not talking to us. I think they talk to us in discussions, but a lot of them don’t intake what we’re saying and or what we’re saying seriously.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, it sounds like that there’s a disconnect between the culture of being neurodivergent versus the physical functioning of the brain of what’s going on there. So it, it’s like they’re coming at it from a, “here’s what the brain does,” or “here’s these things that we notice” when someone has a certain diagnosis or not, versus the culture of actually living as that.

So it sounds like maybe that’s the disconnect of culture versus the scientific, why and how of it.

Amanda Antell: For me, it’s actually not even that for me, it’s just about laziness at whether or not we’re worth the effort of talking to, and it kind of goes back to us not being treated as human.

Again, the blanket treatment is just basically checking a box saying we legally met our requirement to give accommodations to this person without actually talking to them what they need.

Elianna Gnoffo: Look at it from like almost a physical disability standpoint.It’s like there’s many different ways to be physically disabled, so you can’t do a blanket fix-all for that.

Amanda Antell: Well, it goes back to industry professionals being satisfied with what the APA is doing versus like individuals so to the APA, it’s like, because they are quite frankly are very terrible about listening to us.

And because in other industries like universities are even worse about listening to us. It just results in this disconnect of not understanding what we actually need and making a expletive ton of assumptions about us. and to me it’s like that’s why this conversation is so important.

Just the fact that what they’re doing is not enough. And you need to listen to us now.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. Well it’s like with American universities, because they’re not properly funded, they have to operate like they are a company and that means managing their costs. And so it’s like, when I mentioned to OSU that I was suicidal, they were like, “get outta here as fast as you can. ’cause we don’t wanna have a student kill themselves on campus. That’s bad PR.” So that’s the unfortunate situation from that standpoint of they have to operate like a corporation and not truly try to meet the needs of students. So they have to act like a profit maximizing firm. So there’s, there’s the prejudice part of it, and there’s also the physical, like policy and money part of it.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. Money really is kind of what it comes down to a lot. As a neuro divergent community member, what do you need for mental health professionals when you seek treatment? Have these needs ever been met?

Elianna Gnoffo: So this is actually an interesting thing about Portland itself to bring up, is there’s times if you’re not in a good in a properly conducive space to be well, where you don’t have the agency to manage your sensory input, what timing you need for your breaks, what kind of ways people are interacting with you. If you’re not in a way where you can be in a good space and your mental health starts taking a sharp decline, do you have the ability to step away or do you, or are you just gonna be put in this situation until you break, in which case you might need inpatient care?

So currently inpatient care in Portland, if you don’t have a lot of money, I can’t remember their name right now, but it’s really not a great place. So it’s like, you know, sometimes people need inpatient care. It’s a situation sometimes people end up in, or you need some kind of a nurse to maybe check up with you in your home if you aren’t gonna be inpatient.

But there’s the kind of control. And the agency people still need to have, there’s a test of where can you, like if you woke up hungry in the middle of the night, could you go make yourself a microwave burrito, or are you basically in a prison? So it’s meeting people’s needs and you know, it’s not just therapy, it’s the world you live in.

It’s the individual person you would be seeking help from and whether they’re able to meet the needs that you have, and if they’re listening to you and making sure that you have access to any tools, like medications or accommodations you might need and the situation you’re in, or if you do need inpatient care, do these people still treat you like you’re a person?

Amanda Antell: Yeah, totally. So I would just say that I need a mental health professional to listen to me and just actually listen to me and not what current research is saying. Like, I’m not saying I’m trying to contradict current research, but if current research is literally contracting how I’m living my life, how I’m experiencing life, you need to listen to me versus , what it says on paper.

‘ Cause I might not have empirical evidence, but evidence by myself, but I also don’t need empirical evidence to justify myself. I don’t need to prove anything to you. You just need to listen to what I’m saying and if that can’t be met, I need to find a different therapist.

Because at that point, if they’re not even listening to me, I already know they’re not gonna treat me as a person. Just simple. Listen to what I’m saying and take what I’m saying seriously is all I kind of need from a therapist. Being willing to help actually improve my life through whatever therapeutic strategies we can come up with, you know? Like work with me as a team kind of thing, you know?

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. It’s like there’s certain ways where it’s like in clinical trials of what they do, there might be testing a specific type of person. This is something that’s been noted in like medication trials where they don’t test medications on people who are female because of how hormones or other sort of things affect the body.

This was also a problem with crash test dummies because they were using only male-shaped crash crash test dummies. So women were disproportionately dying more often in car crashes because they were testing male bodies and not female bodies. So yeah, that might be a case here with mental health issues where they’re testing only a certain kind of neurodivergentshowing and then they’re trying to apply that to the broader human spectrum.

Amanda Antell: Yeah, I agree. I can concur with that.

Autistic Representation in Media

Elianna Gnoffo: It’s like, oh yes, we shall only test the Sheldon Cooper type autism people. Not to say that they don’t need help, but that’s not the only autism that’s out there.

Amanda Antell: It honestly pisses me off when people talk about Sheldon Cooper as being autistic. ’cause first of all, the show has never confirmed Sheldon as autistic.

And to me they’ve really flip-flopped black back and forth about that. They make him more autistic when it’s convenient and when autism is more in the spotlight and then they just make him less autistic when it’s not. Like young Sheldon, to me, what’s really bad about that? That’s part of why I found the show borderline unwatchable, just because the actors and the cast is really well chosen.

The cast is fantastic. I’m not saying they’re not good actors. But the writing freaking sucks. Yeah. At least on that level.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. The whole, “I am a surgeon” meme has been interesting to watch.

Amanda Antell: Are you talking about The Good Doctor?

Elianna Gnoffo: Yep.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. I figured like The Good Doctor pisses me off too. I’m not gonna lie.

They actually are like starting a spinoff show called The Good Lawyer, which literally, oh my God. I was enraged. I was enraged when I saw the trailer for the lawyer, ’cause it’s like she has, they’re trying to like represent her as high-functioning autistic. No, it was bad. It was so bad.

Elianna, if you wanna rage at something, look up that trailer.

Elianna Gnoffo: Oh God. Yeah. It’s like they keep doing the whole savant thing with autism and it’s like not all autistic people are savants

Amanda Antell: And not even that. It’s like a lot of, that’s not even how autistic savants even look. They even express, that’s not even how they behave, it’s not even accurate.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, it’s like their whole thing is like they wanna fit this archetype of person who’s kind of an expletive or just isn’t always very socially adept, but it’s okay because they’re really smart about something and it’s,

Amanda Antell: well, I do feel like they do try to keep repeating that with House. Like House to me was the best.

Like, I’m not saying I don’t, they again, it was a show that where it was never point Blank said that House was autistic, but he definitely did have a lot of autistic and OCD tendencies . And he was actually a really good representation of neurodivergent even if he wasn’t officially said because yeah, he was a total expletive

But he was a great character because he was very human. They made him human. And that’s an element of these shows really miss a lot of times when you’re working with neurodivergent characters, they come up with, they make them robots and and caricatures of Neurodivergence, but they don’t actually make them people.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well the thing is like if show writers really wanna get good characters who are neurodivergent, you just gotta see who the community is claiming as someone who is a part of their community, like, oh my goodness, this character is definitely has ADHD or has autism. Like I do this with Game of Thrones and Aria.

It’s like she probably has ADHD just looking at everything in her behavior from the books. Don’t ever trust the show, but it’s like-

Amanda Antell: oh yeah, season eight sucked.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well it’s like, it’s like she has emotional regulation issues. She’s fidgeting. She can’t focus on something, especially since she’s under like this great emotional pressure.

She has rejection, sensitivity dysphoria. It’s like she’s fidgeting, she gets distracted. She has a very strong sense of justice, which is something ADHD people can have. So I’m wondering if like, George R.Martin, like knows someone who’s like that, and it’s like, oh, I’m gonna write this person into my book, and doesn’t know that that person’s diagnosed ADHD.

And then it’s like the other characters who have been wolf blooded, that’s what her like thing is called in the book, is like, oh, emotional regulation problems, impulse control issues, very strong feelings, high levels of motion. This is ADHD.

Amanda Antell: Respectfully, I’m gonna say you’re stretching there, but

Elianna Gnoffo: eh, that’s, it’s like there’s different kinds of ADHD

Amanda Antell: Well, it’s more like, it’s hard for me. I’m not saying you’re wrong about any of those things with Aria, but it’s hard for me to kind of think of her as ADHD because she’s also surviving trauma after trauma and just in a medieval world. So it’s more like, it might just be her just mentally blocking out a lot of things that survive.

Elianna Gnoffo: Oh no. Well, it’s like there’s other characters in the book who have not gone through what she has. That’s like a family trait. So it’s like there, from the previous generation there was Liana and Brandon Stark who were her aunt and uncle who have the same things that she has who were not going through what she was going through.

Amanda Antell: I don’t know, I mean, I’ll just respect your opinion on that.

Elianna Gnoffo: Thank you.

Amanda Antell: I’m sorry. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but to me it’s really hard to differentiate between trauma and just surviving a tough situation and neurodivergence.Like that’s a very hard line for me.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well if you’re neurodivergent, you’re more likely to be traumatized by the world around you.

Amanda Antell: I also think you’re more likely to survive like Arya ’cause you’re able to distance yourself from a lot of the emotional expletive that neurotypical people kind of take in stock with. Like, oh my God, Jon snow pissed me the expletive off

Elianna Gnoffo: In the show or in the book

Amanda Antell: Both. I do not get George RR Martin’s obsession with Jon snow. It’s like, okay, he’s the character I feel like you could kill off, and I would have like literally no reaction whatsoever. Like can you like just leave, leave him in the dust please. Can we focus on literally any other character than him?

Elianna Gnoffo: He is a chosen boy.

Amanda Antell: Yeah, but his chosen boy syndrome where it’s like he’s the most boring character. Seriously. Yeah. Anyway, sorry we got like off track big time.

Elianna Gnoffo: Neurodivergence.

Amanda Antell: I know. And then that’s what makes this conversation really authentic. The fact that we are two neurodivergent people talking about special interest in our takes on media and stuff like that.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yep.

Advice For Folk New to Therapy

Amanda Antell: All right. So for number nine, what advice do you have for other neurodivergent community members seeking therapy?

Elianna Gnoffo: I think there’s, from what I’ve heard, there’s like, if you have an issue, you should listen to people or try to check in with people who are also neurodivergent to see who they recommend or who they say to stay away from.

I think there’s online reviews for therapists depending on what sites you’re looking at or what, programs they’re a part of. maybe if the therapist who’s recommended to you isn’t available, you could ask to see, you could ask them to go, oh, is there anyone you recommend?

It’s kind of word of mouth advertising as far as I’m aware of, trying to find people who are recommended, depending on what your situation is and shopping around, keeping up hope that you will find someone who is a good match for you.

Amanda Antell: My overall advice is, trust your gut.

Like, if you have a gut reaction, even to a picture, whether it’s positive or negative, I would just say follow it. And even if you have to meet a person beyond the picture and you have a bad reaction, follow it. ’cause for whatever reason, you’re not comfortable with this person, so it’s not gonna be a good experience for you.

Another thing I would say about it , is if at any time something feels wrong in a therapy session, these professionals are not entitled to your money or your time. so if a service is not being met to you, or if you’re not getting what you need out of the therapy sessions, do not feel bad about dropping them.

Do what you need to, to protect yourself and take care of yourself. At the end of the day, they’re professionals. They’re providing a service, they’re getting paid money. If they get pissy at you for dropping them, that’s even more reason to drop them. ’cause that means that they do feel entitled to you in some way.

And that’s a line therapist absolutely should not cross. That’s a line that no medical provider in any capacity can cross with you.

Elianna Gnoffo: Right.

Amanda Antell: And I would say if they actually harass you about that, I would say report them. ’cause again, that’s just really not okay.

So, finally, are there any final questions or comments you have?

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. So it’s like, therapy can be such a wonderful and important thing. When you have good therapy, it can really give you your life back and change your life for the better. But it’s like you shouldn’t hang all your hopes on therapy.

There is this thing that therapists do talk about, which is called expletive life syndrome. And it’s like you can go to therapy all you want, but if you’re not in a better community situation where you’re not in a job or going to a school that allows you to exist as yourself in a way that’s healthy and good for you, therapy’s only gonna help you so much.

It really is about changing. It’s a holistic system that we need to think about this situation in. It’s like you can go to the doctor for your physical issues, but if you live in a space that has polluted air or polluted water, if you’re not able to make healthy choices, if you live in a food desert, your going to the doctor and getting medications for it is only gonna be so helpful if you don’t have a good holistic system.

So therapy can be life changing for the greatest of things, but you also need to look at the entire world that you’re going through and where you’re living, who you’re living with, what systems you have in place to make living a beautiful thing.

Amanda Antell: Yeah, I would agree with all of that. probably my final thoughts are kind of just like, just remember that as patients, you do have rights and you do have the power to make choices for yourself. I would say that , it’s kind of like you said, Elianna. you have to be in the right mental space.

You have to be in the right environment. You have to be in the right place in general to really go to therapy. Otherwise, you might just keep hitting dead ends and just keep going around in circles. This was kind of brought up in a previous conversation with Silver and Carrie, but I think that kind of goes into almost the exploitative nature of therapy potentially, where it’s like, I think therapists sometimes know they are gonna go in circles with specific patients and they keep insisting or booking this patient coming back to them ’cause it’s more money.

I think that’s rare with therapists. But It is definitely something to be wary of, especially if the therapist isn’t checking in with you to see if their strategies are working.

Elianna Gnoffo: Right. There’s different kinds of therapy.

Like I don’t suffer right now, but I appreciate having my monthly appointments with my psychiatrist , it helps me feel like that there’s a safety net beneath me in case I do fall off my tightrope. It helps orient . Then it’s like if I am going through something tough, I’m not just dumping everything on my friends and I’m not just doing this, that, or the other thing.

I enjoy having a consistent meeting with my psychiatrist and just moving forward when it comes to the general state of psychiatric care for neurodivergent people, I think as long as more neurodivergent people enter the psychiatric field and keep improving the system, so long as both therapists who meet with us and appreciate us and work with us and neurodivergent people themselves, keep speaking up for these issues and keep pushing for it, it’s going to get better.

It’s already gotten so much better. Like we’re not lobotomizing people anymore. We’re not giving electroshock therapy, at least not like we used to. And it’s, it’s getting better, but it does take us speaking up and being active in our lives to make these changes for the future, for the better.

Amanda Antell: This topic of conversation really wasn’t to kind of expletive all over mental health professionals, even though it kind of does turn out that way sometimes in these talks. It’s really just to expose the fact that there’s just so much distance and distrust and there is a lot of bad blood between neurodivergent communities and mental health professionals.

And it’s actually just to kind of bring attention to it and start taking steps towards making it better. ’cause, we do need mental health professionals. Absolutely. That’s the really harsh reality for us. They act as the mitigators between us and the general public. And that’s why this conversation needs to happen.

’cause they need to listen to us. I really wish that we could mobilize and really kind of make a voice for ourselves. And there are organizations like the ASN, I think, Autism Self-Advocacy Network or something like that. There’s a couple of good autism organizations out there, but it’s like the prominent one is Autism Speaks and they’re the ones who have just taken over the conversation.

So it’s kind of on us in the mental health and the professional mental health community to take the conversation back.

Elianna Gnoffo: May Autism Speaks be ended. May it dissolve.

Amanda Antell: Not gonna happen for a while, but be very curious to ask like officials, they’re like, what is your justification for this?  Like, what possible reason do you think you’re right here? When it’s been proven over and over again, you’ve been wrong and a lot, and if you actually speak to autistic people, the majority of us kind of hate you.

Elianna Gnoffo: And it’s like supporting ASAN. Isn’t that the one that’s run by autistic people?

Amanda Antell: Yeah. Yeah. I just couldn’t remember the acronym. Yeah. I just wasn’t sure if I was remembering the acronym correctly.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah, so it’s like there’s that, it was so sad when the Muppets, so Sesame Street. Was once paired with ASAN, but because they’re no longer publicly funded, they had to switch over to Autism Speaks because they had money. And it was like, it was just heartbreaking to have that happen because ASAN doesn’t get the kind of support and find funding that Autism Speaks does.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. And that again, it goes back to the fact that Autism Speaks, started a conversation without us. That is totally why that happens, and that’s why they’re so well established and so well rooted and so well funded. They’re very good at creating nightmares, but they’re very good at selling fantasies. And the fantasy is that somehow your kid might not become autistic one day, or it’s like autism can be cured or autism can be controlled. Basically they sell this fantasy to parents that their kids will be normal.

And that’s just really horrifically inaccurate.

Elianna Gnoffo: And it’s like who on earth started this whole thing that like having an autistic kid is the end of the world. It’s the whole, oh, I don’t want my kid to get vaccinated or X, Y, or Z because I don’t want them to turn out autistic. And it’s like, what’s so wrong with being autistic?

Where did you get this idea that your child being autistic is like them being just, it’s just the end of the world. What? Why is this the thing that you feel?

Amanda Antell: But anyways, again, goes back to just how we’ve been treated history wise, just in general.

And Autism Speaks, didn’t start that, but they did take advantage of it, is what I would say. They didn’t start it, but they really took advantage of it and they made it public and they took the very worst aspects of autism. They took the most severe cases of autism and just really sensationalized it. And that’s what was really damaging to us.

Autism in Myth

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, it’s like people who are different have always been like something you’re not supposed to be or supposed to be conforming. You’re supposed to be following what people expect of you. It’s like there’s these, stories of changeling children like, you need to get rid of them or something.

Changeling children symbolically have sometimes been interpreted as representing neurodivergent children.

Amanda Antell: I actually completely missed that. I always just assumed it was some weird folk tale.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, it’s like folk tales are sometimes stories, but there’s often a lot of symbolism to them.

So it’s like, there are changeling child stories where it’s like, oh, you had a neurodivergent child. You did not like that very well or because of the superstition at the time and the different behavior? It wasn’t taken well.

Amanda Antell: Yeah. I was changing children because they like, it was because the real children were like, taken out their cribs and like eaten by goblins or something, was how the story went.

And that’s, that’s why. And I thought that was why the parents were upset. The fact that their children were like eaten or something.

Elianna Gnoffo: No, it’s the whole thing is like they do a swap. So it’s like the, the–

Amanda Antell: Well, I know that part.

Elianna Gnoffo: I think think it’s real funny to like raise a human child in their culture and then they’re playing a prank on the humans by going, eh, we’re just gonna mess with you by having you raise a fey as if it’s your baby and we’re gonna mess with you.

So it’s that-

Amanda Antell: Again, that just sounds like a pain in the expletive to me.

Elianna Gnoffo: Believe or not the fey are just trying to be expletive.

Amanda Antell: But does, doesn’t that like put burden on the fey as well? ’cause they’re raising something that isn’t a fey. I feel like that’s like that everyone loses in that situation.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, they don’t care, but–

Amanda Antell: But it’s like they lose too though.

Elianna Gnoffo: It’s the folklore. It’s like, it’s the whole–

Amanda Antell: But that just makes no sense.

Elianna Gnoffo: So it’s like the way that their society operates and the way that their culture is, is very different from human culture. So for them it, it’s not like an annoyance to them that they’re raising something different. It’s just they don’t really care if the kid is okay because they’re sending in adult that’s in the form of a baby to mess with people.

And then they’re also messing with humans by taking away their baby and then they have like a wrong human that can’t really go back to human society if they raise it in fae culture enough because they won’t be able to really socialize with people

Amanda Antell: Again. I know we’re like, and again, this really doesn’t have much to do with the conversation, but it’s like, again, that makes no sense ’cause it’s like you’re still wasting, both sides are still wasting resources on, on offspring or individuals that don’t want, it’s, it’s like, it, it would just make sense not to take the child.

Elianna Gnoffo: It’s a story. It’s–

Amanda Antell: This is me and like folktale and like analogies and stuff like that. It’s like I just pick apart the stories about just how they make no sense. Like my aunt and Uncle-in-law, they’re from Britain and they’re very, very British in the sense that they have those like David Attenborough voices that put you to sleep.

But anyways, one time they were trying to say, explain saving public face to me or whatever, or saving face or something like that. My uncle-in-law came up with this story involving eggs and like a queen and like some kind of minister where it’s like a, apparently the queen or Highborn lady or something made eggs for like a garden party or something.

And she asked the minister to eat one, to taste one or something. Uh, the minister was like a man of God, so he couldn’t say that the egg was bad or he didn’t want to say the egg was bad ’cause he didn’t wanna lose his head or something. So he like came up with this whole neutral response that somehow. That was basically a non-answer and my response was, you do realize she basically gave everyone her garden party food poisoning probably.

[laughter]. Right? And the guy would’ve lost his head anyways because it would’ve become pretty obvious he was lying.

Elianna Gnoffo: Yeah. I think in that story then it’s like you’re trying to give yourself the opportunity to maybe not die, but–

Amanda Antell: No, but that, but he was going to die anyways because if one egg is bad, the likelihood is they’re all bad. And if you’re going to give all your guests food poisoning at the garden party, it’s gonna be obvious that the guy lied. It doesn’t matter. You’re gonna, the result’s gonna be the same there, the result, only one result ends up with people getting food poisoning.

Elianna Gnoffo: So, yeah, it, I think in that one, it’s like, you know, human is very panicked and is not firing on all cylinders in that moment when someone who has the power to kill him is asking

Amanda Antell: Do you just leave town in that situation? Like, do you just leave town? Do you have enough money to leave town in that situation?

Elianna Gnoffo: Well, that’s the whole thing. Can he leave? So if it’s a garden party and she made the eggs, that garden party is imminent. So would he have the access to leave town?

Amanda Antell: Well, probably not. If she made the eggs that day, I would assume not. ’cause it’s like presumably the eggs are gonna be served like really soon, you know?

Elianna Gnoffo: So yeah, I think this was a case of a man panicking and maybe–

Amanda Antell: –or like the guy I’ve like told the story several different times and I think it gets weirder every time. ’cause I just don’t fully remember the analogy. And the uncle just was like defeated because I just kept poking holes in the story and how it made absolutely no sense. And another one, I just get amusement out of this one where it’s like people try to present moral quandaries to me.

Like there’s like this like. I don’t know, theology or psychology or like morals 101 question where it’s like you have several people tied on two different tracks. You have like a bunch of people on like one person and you like know the one person or something. How do you stop the train or like, which track do you go on or something?

And I’m like, you either stop the train or get the explitive off it because if you can’t stop the train, it’s gonna go off the rails anyways.

Elianna Gnoffo: Well it’s like, so the train has a specific weight, so you can’t put a stop to it. You can only, you’re at the lever that decides if it goes down one track or it goes down the other track. And on one track there’s Five strangers, and on the other track is like your spouse or your mom or something. So you have to make the decision of, do I make the more selfish choice of killing five people, which is more people dead, but I get to save this person who I have an emotional attachment to.

Or do I save more lives objectively by killing this person who I have a deep emotional connection to?

Amanda Antell: But are you on the train? But again, why are you on the train? Why are you not just pulling, the brake lever? Or why are you on the train if it’s out of, if it can’t stop, just get off the train.

Elianna Gnoffo: There is no, like, you’re usually not on the train. It’s like you’re at the lever–

Amanda Antell: That makes no sense either. Why do you have the power to stop it if you’re not on the train?

Elianna Gnoffo: So it’s the hypothetical, like we’re testing morality thing here in a vacuum.

Amanda Antell: So if you’re going to test morality, at least make it make sense.

Elianna Gnoffo: So it’s like, the with philosophy in this, we’re trying to isolate the situation with hypothetical situations, like hypothetically, aliens come down and they say they’re gonna blow up the earth and then you have to be given an ultimatum.

End

Amanda Antell: Elianna, I’m sorry, I’m just gonna say thank you for speaking on this podcast with me. I hope to see you on another one.

Thank you for listening to another episode of Let’s Talk Autism. I hope you are enjoying this deep dive analysis into the relationship dynamics between neurodivergent communities and mental health professionals.

As Elianna and I discussed, there are different opinions surrounding the responsibility of the provider and what is owed to the patient. But regardless of where you stand on this argument, the fact is that many mental health professionals are not checking in with us. Are relying on outdated studies and are using standard treatment methods that just don’t work for us.

The main takeaway I want the audience to have is to keep in mind the wider context of this issue surrounding mental health in the neurodivergent community. As mentioned in the discussion, asking neurodivergent people what they need versus relying on what studies say we need is pivotal, and this is something professionals, industry members, school officials, and the general public need to practice.

Thank you for listening and I hope you tune in for the next episode.

Nic Meza Honea: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk, Portland Community College’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the PCC Multimedia Department. We air new episodes bi-weekly on our home website, our Spotify channel, and on XRAY 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM.