Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction to Let’s Talk!

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/DCA, on Spotify, on XRay 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Community Radio, 90.7 FM.

Miri: So, yeah! Thank you for agreeing to be a part of this interview. I am looking forward to being able to ask people about their experiences with education as people of color, because as a non-person of color, I don’t face the same challenges or hurdles that many of the people in this world do, especially of the people in this country. 

Guest Introductions

Miri: I’ll have you start by introducing yourself, gimme your name, pronouns, major and occupation, and then your racial identification and how long you’ve lived in Portland. So if we’ll start with Michelle. 

Michelle: Hi, I’m Michelle. 

Miri: Hi Michelle. 

Michelle: We’ll say she/ her pronouns. I identify as mixed. I have Indian ancestry and German ancestry and probably like North African ancestry, too. I am in the EMS program and I have lived in Portland, almost for two years. But I’m an Oregon native, so I’ve been around Oregon my whole life. 

Miri: Where’d you live before that? 

Michelle: I’ll just say all over the place in Oregon. 

Miri: And, Asher, what about yourself? 

Asher: Hi, my name is Hannah. I go by Asher. My pronouns are she/ her. My major slash occupation; I am currently a podcast producer. Wanna be a multimedia film producer-ish. Still trying to figure that out. Racial identification; I am Asian. My parents are mainly from Hong Kong, but we also have a bit of family from Malaysia in general. I’ve lived in Portland for about six years now, but before this I was in Singapore. I was living in Singapore for most of my life, but I was born in Texas, so yeah. 

Miri: Interesting. That is a unique combination of places to live and be from. Nikhil, introduce yourself if you’d like. 

Nikhil: Hi, I am Nikhil Raj Mehrotra I will take any pronouns. I’m like a farie, I will take them all. I am Indian as far as I can tell. I’ve checked with my parents and my grandparents as far as I can tell. A hundred percent Indian. My major is video production, but I’m really trying to get into filmmaking and I’ve lived in Oregon for five years now. Almost exactly five years. Cause I moved here in July of 2020. Before that I was in India from 2011, to 2020. And then before that I was born in California, Bay Area. 

Michelle: Cool. 

Miri: Nice. Congratulations on being here for five years or I’m sorry, either way. 

Michelle’s School Experience

Miri: So, what was the school experience where you grew up?

Michelle: I’m just gonna say, I’m gonna throw it out there. I’d be like very, very white. 

Miri: How so? 

Michelle: Yeah, I mean like on the coast, there’s a lot of like Christian faith on the coast and kind of variance of Christianity. It’s more rural, so I guess the next minority would be people of Mexican descent. From like preschool to like eighth grade, there was like one black girl in my school district. And then like a couple of other Asian people. Not a very diverse place. I had to explain to kids what chickpeas were when I was growing up. But, it’s so crazy to also think like, now I can eat out more because there’s vegetarian options. People know what tofu is, people know what like chickpeas are. 

Miri: How did being a very substantial minority, affect your education at that level?

Michelle: I think, I just remember feeling like I always needed to explain myself, like so much. I had to like provide a bunch of evidence and like “who I was” and “it’s okay to be vegetarian”. It definitely like affected like how I could participate in class and how well I did in class for sure. In my junior year of high school; we had like IB, the International Baccalaureate Program, at my school, and there’s a teacher who was actively trying to get all the brown kids out of class and, was telling us, ” Hey, you don’t belong in this class. You’re failing my class.”. He had all these really punitive, stupid rules that he would throw out sometimes. Not throw out, but just like toss on us. If you were like late to class and there was an assignment due, you would fail that assignment. So, if your bus was late or something, then we’re like pulling students in through the window trying to get them into class so they don’t fail their assignment.

Miri: I assume the district did nothing about him. 

Michelle: Yeah, no. There was one black kid in in the class and yeah, he was just overly like, mean and snarky to this kid and other kids in my class would be like, “you’re being too mean to him.” It wasn’t because this teacher was racist, and I did say something to my parents, but they’re like, you have to be careful about what you say or accuse people of. And I’m like, “why aren’t you backing me up?”. So, when we went to the principal, almost the entire class did, it was because the teacher was just grading everyone hard, like there were two, Chinese students and he was kind of leaving them alone. To me, I’m like, this is a model minority thing. This is why he’s leaving them alone. It’s because they’re Chinese. One of them had a presentation. Their PowerPoint failed. The PowerPoint was worth like one point or something, and then he just failed them because their PowerPoint wasn’t working. So, anyways, we went and we complained to the principal and I was like, “I want my grade reevaluated, because I’m failing right now; I have a D. I’ve been doing the work. I don’t deserve this poor of a grade.” Then the principal was like, ” no, we’re not gonna reevaluate your grade.” I would look at my tests and the Chinese students tests, I am literally saying the same thing. But, because of my disability, I couldn’t get it together to go in and be like, “look at these papers!”. Anyways, there was a midterm, I remember this teacher had brought, like donuts and bagels and orange juice and I’m just like, “you’re trying to buy us!” how is this happening? And nobody is saying anything? And I was like, 16 or 17 and absolutely fucking terrified. I was talking to one of my only friend that I kept in touch with from high school, and she’s like, ” yeah, that is so fucking racist!”. Then to make things worse, he like got up in front of the class and was like, ” yeah, Oregon isn’t even that racist compared to the south! Like in the south you have the black people going into one line and white people going into other.”, and I’m like, ” you’re not helping your case, dude.”. 

Miri: Like, 50 years ago. It’s been illegal since then. 

Michelle: No, he was talking about like when he’s visited the south and I’m like, ” so, clearly like he was knowing he was racist.”. I don’t know. I feel like the coast is very conservative too, and it’s just I don’t know why nobody else said anything about this. I think the next term I got like a B in the class instead of a D. So, I think he took away the rule of you fail the assignment if you come walk in late. So, I feel like as brown people, we have to not only meet the standard we have to go like above it.

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle: Cause White Mediocrity is like accepted and they’re like, yay or whatever. Then just like with brown people, you just have to keep…

Miri: You’re not given that same grace? 

Michelle: You’re not. Yeah. 

Miri: Held to a higher standard.

Michelle: Yeah.

Asher’s School Experience

Miri: So Asher, what was your experience like? Did you ever have anything similar? 

Asher: Well, not similar, but I experienced both sides. So, I was in kindergarten when I was in the States, when I was in Texas as a kiddo. Then I did experience public schools while I was in Singapore, in Asia. That was a whole different kettle of fish. Schooling system in Singapore is very competitive in general even for local students. So, for me, as the only American Chinese kid, basically, in an entire public school of Singaporean, Malaysian, students it was definitely difficult. I was made fun of for having an American accent, which was really rough and just a lot of bullying and it got really bad to the point where I was pretty much placed in the back of the class because the teacher just couldn’t control everybody for making fun of me. So, I was placed in the back of the class and that did not help with my self-confidence at all. How teachers work in Singapore; and I bet it’s changed over time, I bet it’s gotten better. But, back then they were very hands off and they didn’t provide any afterschool help or any tuition or anything. They expect the student to go to their parents and be like, “Hey, I’m struggling with the subject, can I get help for it?”, then the parents provide tuition for the student or for their child, basically.

Miri: Does public school cost private money there? 

Asher: That’s a good question. I mean, I am not sure. I never really checked into that at all. I just knew that it was expensive, in general. Everything was just paid out of pocket from classes to even lunches and stuff. We didn’t have free lunches. Like I would bring my wallet to school and I would pay for lunch at the cafeteria in the school. Like they even took money from the students pretty much back then. 

Miri: See, you’re laughing at that, but that’s just the normal. That’s just normal here. 

Asher: Yeah. What was your question just now, Michelle? 

Michelle: What do you mean by “tuition”? Like, do you mean tutoring? 

Asher: Tutoring? Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. Okay. 

Miri: Oh, okay. 

Asher: We call it tuition. 

Michelle: How do you as a like a preschooler be like, “I’m not doing good in class” to like your parents? ’cause like sometimes like kids don’t even have that. 

Asher: Kids don’t even have, yeah, exactly. So, I just kept on struggling for like two whole years. It was just really tough being singled out as American Chinese and made fun of just by stereotypes an American kind of thing. Like, ” oh, you’re American! You eat a lot of fast food!”, and I’m like, “that’s not true. I eat a lot of Asian food. But, okay.”.

Miri: You eat the food that is in the city that you’re in just like everyone else. 

Asher: I eat food. Yeah, no, exactly! Just like everybody else. Like they expect me to literally go to a convenience store and buy like a cheeseburger or something and I’m like 

Miri: Do they think you’re flying in McDonald’s from overseas?

Asher: I mean, we have McDonald’s that’s different. 

Miri: No, no, no. A special American only McDonald’s 

Asher: A Special American only McDonald’s. But, that definitely changed me as a person and just made me realize, “hey, that’s not nice and it’s not normal to be treated differently.” I became a very quiet kid after my experience in public school for two, three years, and then I got placed into homeschooling school. Which didn’t really help either because I didn’t get any other social skills, during my middle school. Then I finally went into an American high school in Singapore, in preparation to come back here to the States for college, kind of thing.

Miri: Interesting. So, you had the plan to come back here after school? Way beforehand? 

Asher: Yes. Yeah. No, I was sick of Singapore at that point. I was sick of Singapore. I didn’t really like living there at all. Mainly because of the weather, but also because I just didn’t have any friends or anything that I really liked in Singapore and just really wanted to come back here to the States, to my roots, basically. Where it’s like, all right, “if people are gonna be treating me like an American here in Singapore, then I’m just gonna go back to America.”. But, I feel like coming back here to the States, it didn’t make anything that much better. Especially when I went into college and hit that COVID era where everybody was blaming Asians for COVID, and that was a whole other thing! Fun fact, I actually almost did get like… what’s the word?

Miri: “Assaulted”? 

Asher: “Assaulted”! Yes. during COVID, while I was out for the first time in, I think, two or one and a half years of COVID starting, basically went out to do some grocery shopping. Was stopped by this really big white guy and he’s like, “go back to your country! What are you Asians doing?” And I was like, “excuse me, sir?”. 

Miri: “I was born in Texas, actually I’m more American than any of you.” 

Asher: He actually stopped and he was confused because I spoke proper English. So, I guess that was a plus. So I was like, I dunno. Like, what would expect

Miri: Cool, this one person I didn’t expect to speak to… 

Asher: to come out this mouth? Like yeah. I don’t know. Maybe he expected me to speak some broken English or Asian English or whatever. I mean there’s definitely both end and of the spectrums kind of thing of like you’re in an Asian country and you’re being treated differently because you’re American. But, then in America you’re also being treated differently because of the… 

Miri: Because you’re Asian. 

Asher: …color of your skin. Yeah. No, exactly, and how you look. 

Nikhil’s School Experience

Miri: So Nikhil, what was your school experience growing up like? 

Nikhil: I think it was very different because I did the majority of my schooling in India where most people looked like me. So, it was pretty normal. I remember like kindergarten and preschool in America. But, I don’t think that counts because kids when you’re in like kindergarten and preschool, you’re like not a full person yet. You know what I mean? 

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Nikhil: It’s all instinct. Here is this person and this person, and I’m going to grab both of them, and we’re going to run into a wall as fast as we can. There’s no rhyme or reason to what kids do usually. It’s just, “Hey, I’m having fun.”. Moving to India was a little funny, because my friends have told this to me; the way that my accent sounds, it’s a mix, right? It’s a mix of Indian and American. 

Asher: Mm-hmm. 

Nikhil: And so my friends would make fun of me sometimes but it was never anything serious. I did like schooling in India, but I went to a private school in India, so I don’t know what the public experience was like. It was pretty normal, I think. 

Miri: Did the private school teachers treat you any differently because you were American from here, 

Nikhil: Most of the teachers were pretty good. They were pretty professional. There were a few who weren’t. One notable example is my fifth grade physics teacher; he would refuse to let us write down what he was writing on the board until he was finished writing it. And then once he was finished writing it, he would give us 10 seconds to write it all down, and then he’d erase it and he was gone after a week. Another very notable example, is I think fifth grade onward, we had to learn a second language and I chose French. Turns out I’m not good at learning new language, that’s not one of my skills. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Nikhil: Fifth grade to ninth grade. So that’s four years of taking French. Failed most of those. My teacher for most of it was a six foot two black man from France. I don’t know what his accent was ’cause I’ve never heard it before, I’ve never heard it again, and I could not understand the word that man said; English or French. Neither could anyone else. I don’t think the other teachers could understand it. It was this very thick, like French accent, like combined with wherever he was from originally. It just, unintelligible. I had no idea what that man was saying at any given time. He also, never learned any of our names. I was in this man’s class for almost four years, and he only ever referred to any of us as ” guy”. He go, “Ey, guy!”. He would point at us and we had to figure out which one of us it was, because he would refer to, both, us and the girls that way. He was a great guy, I don’t know how he was employed for that long. Because, genuinely, I spoke to my classmates about this. I don’t think any of them learned anything from that man. 

Miri: Huh. I wonder how he ended up in teaching in that situation? 

Nikhil: I don’t know. I had considered asking him, but I don’t know if I would’ve understood his answer.

Miri: Did he speak Hindi? 

Nikhil: Part of the thing is my family is North Indian. But, when I lived in India, we lived in Karnataka, which is the southern part, and Karnataka, they speak Kannada. I don’t speak Kannada. I have never spoken a word of it. But, it was a private school, so all the teachers spoke English usually.

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Nikhil: There was one, time in sixth grade, where a woman came to speak to us. But, she only spoke  Kannada. Only four people in the class understood  Kannada. There were 25 of us in the class, and she also looked like Gru from Despicable Me. I don’t mean she sort of looked like him. She one-to-one looked like you took, Gru outta Despicable Me; you like, made his skin darker, put some hair on and put him in a classroom. That’s what she looked like, 100%! The entire lab was struggling to not burst out laughing. I had to go to the bathroom twice during those 40 minutes because I couldn’t stop myself from laughing. My class mates was like crying from laughter, because she looked like Gru. I never knew what she was talking about. Most confusing 40 minutes of my life. Before I move on to what it was like in America; Miri, you made a face when I said physics in fifth grade. I wanna know what that was about? 

Miri: Oh, yeah! Yeah, ’cause here, in the American schools, you don’t teach physics until senior year of high school a lot of the time.

Nikhil: Yeah. So, the way that it worked in India was we had nine classes every day. Each class was 40 minutes. First grade to fourth grade, we didn’t have Physics, Bio, or Chem. We had STEM, which was just like the basics of all three. Fifth grade onward, we had Physics, Bio, Chem. I don’t remember what my schedule was exactly. I remember fifth to ninth though. ‘ cause we had math. We had English, Lang, Lit, Physics, Bio, Chem… We had to take coding until eighth grade, where I got to switch it to either art or economics. I chose economics. PE was its own class. History, social sciences, and geography…

Miri: Interesting. ‘Cause here we have… It’s pretty much just general science up until high school. 

Nikhil: That’s what I’ve heard 

Miri: There are other classes available. Some schools will have an elective of some more particular thing, but I don’t think almost anywhere. Cause here fifth grade is still Elementary School. I don’t think there’s any Elementary School Physics outside of Elite Elementary Schools for nerds. 

Nikhil: it was weird though. I moved here 2020, and so I did my Sophomore, Junior, and Senior year in America. Which was very weird, because I think the first big difference was I was unused to leaving my classroom. In India you very rarely left the classroom unless it was to go to like a lab or PE. That threw me off, which was, “okay, go to this class for this class and this class for this class.”. That threw me off. 

Miri: Did the teachers rotate through instead? 

Nikhil: Yeah, the teachers would rotate through. Moving to America though was a little weird. Most of the teachers, here I’ve discovered, find it very odd when you call them “ma’am” or “sir”. But, for me, that was like the norm. So, when I first moved here, I used to get a lot of weird looks, cause I used to call teachers ma’am, sir, and I also just was really bad about using my computer because I had never used any technology in school. Like in my old school, we had computers, but we weren’t allowed to carry them with us. We kind of had like our own personal computers with us to work on. All of our work was done on sheets and it was super weird. I will say the one nice thing about moving to Oregon, I think I guess, was that going into American school for those last three years, people were mostly like, “Oh yeah, welcome!”. Mostly. The school I went to was super rich white kids. So, a lot of them were not very smart in the sense of like they didn’t know much about the world. The amount of students that asked me, “do you speak Hindu?”, is incredible! Because that’s not a language, that’s a religion. You are mixing it up with “Hindi”. I can see how you mix it up, but that’s just not right.

Michelle: They like, have an idea of what language. At least they have an idea. 

Miri: Yeah. At least they weren’t like, “Hey, do you speak Indian?”.

Nikhil: That’s just what I was about to say. I’ve had a lot of students and teachers ask me, “do you speak Indian?”, and I had to explain to them not how that works. That’s not how that works.

Asher: It’s the same thing with “Chinese” and “Mandarin”. It’s like they get the two mixed up. 

Nikhil: They’re completely different languages. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle: Yeah.

Nikhil: Which is just not fun. Very funny for me, I think the worst part was teachers don’t expect you to start laughing at them when they ask you questions. So, when you do, they become very embarrassed. I thought it was great. I did, for the longest time, have people continually ask me, “oh, do you go to Indian restaurants around here? Do you have a favorite one?”. But, to which my answer was, “no, why would I? I get Indian food at home. I’m sick and tired of eating Indian food. Please stop giving it to me.”. Like in India, I meet with my friends and they’re like, “yeah, this is great. I have all this great food, but I want go out and eat fast food. I want something other than Indian.”. Then I come here and my friends are like, “oh, you can eat Indian food all the time. That’s so lucky.”. No, Indian food is my normal food. I’ve eaten so much of it. I want less. 

Miri: Like, if I went to Mongolia or something and they were like, “oh, are you looking for burgers and mac and cheese?” And I’m like, ” no, that’s what I make at home.”. 

Nikhil: But, yeah, basically I didn’t find it that different because I think once you get to high school, most people are not horrible to you. They’re like, “yeah, welcome.”. 

Miri: Interesting. 

Nikhil: That’s my, yeah, that’s my thing. 

Miri: 

Discussion on Racism and Bullying

Miri: When have you seen others be othered? In what ways and how did that make you feel? If you see someone being bullied… Like, Asher if you see someone being bullied for being Asian and you’re like, “well, they haven’t treated me that way. But, they’re treating this person this way.”. How often have you seen that and how does that make you feel as opposed to when someone treats you that way? 

Asher: I’ve not seen that before, honestly. I’ve sort of just been treated as different, as the “other”, in this scenario. I’ve never seen it the other way around at all, which. I wish I have, but at the same time, I also wish I hadn’t. I just wish that there wasn’t that ” other” thought process behind everything. There’s “them” and then there’s “us”, kind of thing. Which it’s a sad thing, especially like with the world being so torn up about just… 

Miri: everything.

Asher: Everything. Yeah! Exactly! What’s another thing of race to keep us apart. There has to be more important things to be standing up against rather than the color of our skin.

Michelle: Yeah. Or just like what people look like in general. 

Asher: Yeah. No, exactly.

Michelle: it’s sad ’cause like kids aren’t born racist, so then you hear garbage from, I don’t know, an adult, or an older sibling, or a younger sibling… 

Asher: or social media. 

Michelle: Yeah. Or social media. Yeah, 

Miri: Social media, news, movies, 

Michelle: Less so when I was a kid. 

Miri: I was a teenager, probably like 11 or 12, when social media really took off. In a way that it is most recognizable now. Where, I made a Facebook when I was 13, but I was younger than most people who had a Facebook at that point. Where now that is just normal. Like people are trying to be, Instagram influencers at eight, so I can’t imagine how much worse. Seeing that kind of thing is now than it was even 15 years ago or 30 years ago. ‘ Cause there seems to have been kind of like a peak and valley of things not being considered okay, of racism being assumed default as a bad thing that will get you fired or get you barred from office, that kind of thing. Now, has kind of, both because of the political climate and because of our interconnected meanness in social media even mainstream media at this point, has kind of disappeared into; well now it’s back and people are trying to reinforce those into their children again. Which there have been racists and bigots for millennia. But, I can’t imagine how hard it is to make your kid not be racist now versus in the past.

Asher: That’s where gentle parenting comes in. I feel like, this is how I grew up, was that my parents exposed me to a lot of different cultures as a kid. That it’s okay to be different. It’s okay to be from a different country. You don’t say “different”, you say like, ” this person is from India”, or ” this person is from Japan.”, ” This person’s from Korea.”, “This person’s from China.”… There’s different people of different culture and they have different habits and they’re all from different parts of life. That doesn’t make them okay to tease or anything like that. At the end of the day, we’re all human beings. 

Miri: Yeah, i grew up in a pretty small town in Western Colorado and the demographics of that are White… and that’s it.

Asher: Period.

Miri: Yeah. I moved to Portland when I was eight, and Portland is infamous for being the whitest city in America by demographic. Like just percentage wise, this is the whitest city in the country. I was taken aback by how many black people there were here because in the little town I grew up in, I think in the entire six years that I was there, all the way through preschool, kindergarten, first and second grade, I remember seeing two Black people ever. There were a few Asian people. One of my very good friends was a first generation Chinese immigrant and I remember being racist, because I just didn’t know that even what I was doing was racist at the time. I was just being influenced by the other kids who had been raised in an almost all white town by parents who were raised in almost all white towns. So, they would be like, “oh, in Chinese culture they kiss you on your birthday, so you better run!”, and I was like, “oh no, I don’t wanna be kissed. It’s my birthday! Ah!”. 

Asher: I’ve never heard of that culture before. 

Miri: No. ’cause it’s absolutely made up. That’s like the kind of thing that a 9-year-old makes up to lie to their five-year-old sibling about.

Reflecting on Racial Awareness

Asher: Of course. 

Miri: But, from my perspective, there was never any blatant racism, but I was too young to know. By the time that I understood that, that was really a thing that could happen to other people, I didn’t live there anymore. So, looking back on the things now; I’m like, “wow, there was a lot of weird, questionable things from that small town in Colorado that I just didn’t even see at the time.”. So, then I went to Chicago, which is a very black city, and then I came back home here and I was like, “wow! Man, look at all these white people everywhere!” 

Michelle: I remember when I moved to Eugene for the first round of college. I was just like, ” where are all the brown people?”. Because, it just wasn’t a place where brown people go, at that time. 

Experiences in Higher Education

Michelle: I think there’s definitely like a lot less racial minorities in higher education. I think it’s changing. But, yeah, that was a shocker. Then, also, I felt like Eugene was a lot whiter, for some reason, than the coast. But, I feel like Portland is like probably one of the most diverse places that I’ve lived in and I don’t know why. 

Miri: Oh yeah. No, it is. 

Michelle: Being in Oregon… 

Miri: it is substantially more diverse than the entirety of the rest of Oregon. 

Michelle: Yeah. 

Miri: I mean, Oregon was a… Portland was a redline city until… 

Michelle: Well, same with Eugene too. They did red lining there too. But, Oregon was designated like a white haven when it was created, like when the state was created. 

Miri: Which is why it isn’t California or Washington, basically. Because, it was founded as a White Haven, a Sundown State, essentially. 

Michelle: Yeah, people still brought over slaves. But, they would hide them in boxes. On the Oregon Trail, they’d have boxes and then at night they’d come out and exist. Also, fun fact, like something that I learned; one of the first female property owners was a black woman. Her husband I believe had bought her freedom, so they were like living together had some kids and then the husband passed away. Then like the racist neighbor was like, “no, women can’t own property, especially black women.”. So, there was like a dispute on whether she could own property. I would like to think that she won. Not really sure. But, anyways, it’s just kind of crazy to think about that. That was not that long ago. 

Miri: Yeah. What about your secondary education? 

Michelle: I feel like I was so overwhelmed and under-prepared for college and just like finding resources, finding help, finding tutoring, it was crazy. Like I failed a lot of my classes my first term. 

Miri: Was there support for you?

Michelle: Support? Not really. I didn’t find it till like way later. ‘Cause I finally went to whatever accessible education center that they have. But, like initially I was trying on campus counseling because I was getting so anxious and I had like a really shitty repeat. But, then they’re like, “you know what? You’re having a hard time with school too. Why don’t you try this place?”, and I’m like, “well, I have before.”. I don’t know, it was just like the second time trying to go get involved there, I think, was just better. ‘Cause there were like the right people there for to help me out. Then I was like, “whoa. Learning accommodations, what?” Then things just got a lot easier. I remember like when I first got there, there weren’t that a lot of minorities there. By the time I left, it was more diverse and there was a lot more student groups that you could be a part of to help find a place and find your people, find support.

Miri: Did the increase in diversity make it easier for you to reach out to those support networks or even just find unofficial ones? 

Michelle: Yeah, I think it did. 

Challenges with Professors and Support Systems

Michelle: I’m like, trying to think through some of the professors that I had a hard time with. There was one that didn’t speak English. So, my first term of college, I had what was Math one 12? He didn’t speak English. 

Miri: What did he speak?

Michelle: Greek and everyone in the class had a hard time with that.

Miri: I mean, Trigonometry is all Greek to me, so… 

Michelle: Well, yeah. Technically, sure. But, like this person didn’t speak English, so it was like very broken English. Then he would also when we were super confused, he would like laugh at people asking questions. There was one professor that I had; I was trying to go to his office hours and then he like wouldn’t be there and then he would throw everything back on me, if that made sense. Like, I wasn’t doing whatever that was easy and it was like shooting myself in my foot, or whatever. I’m like, “well, I’m trying to ask for accommodations and he wasn’t following that.”. So, I wasn’t really sure if it was like racism or just sexism.

Miri: Do any of you feel like you are ever treated differently by people in secondary education, than they treated white students or students of other races?

Asher: So define “post-secondary education”, because I think I’m thinking of it differently. Is it high school or is it college? 

Miri: College. 

Asher: Okay. Yeah. college, not really. Because I moved over here to Oregon, went to PCC and they were fine. Because, I think PCC, in general, just has a lot of different cultured students and teachers at the same time and I was treated pretty similarly. I don’t know, probably, maybe there were other scenarios that just went over my head because I’m used to the whole scene of ” being different” and then it was just very refreshing to be like, “oh, there’s other students here that are also Asian!”, or there are other students here that are of different cultural backgrounds and I don’t feel as left out or anything like that.

Michelle: I guess higher education, it’s more liberal, or at least around here it’s more liberal.

Miri: Pretty broadly. Yeah. 

Michelle: Professors like have traveled. They’ve just been around the world more, dealt with more people. They’re not like your small town high school teachers that, once in a while travel…

Miri: Go to the big city up the road for a weekend.

Michelle: Yeah, there we go. 

Asher: Students are actually trying to do their schoolwork rather than judge other people. That’s, 

Michelle: yeah. 

Miri: And they just tend to act as a melting pot more. Because, you’ll go to the high school that you live next to. You’ll go to the elementary school that you live next to. But, college, you can travel, halfway across the state, halfway across the country, to a whole different country. That does just create an atmosphere of more people with more differences than a high school in rural Oregon that has a total count of 300 students, of which five of them are a minority. Looking back at my questions. 

Impact of Racial Identity on Creativity

Miri: How has your relationship with your racial identity influenced your work or your creativity?

Asher: I don’t think it’s ever affected, at least, work in general. I hope it doesn’t! Still being pretty fresh out of college… 

Miri: A newcomer to the workforce. 

Asher: Secondary education. Yeah. Still pretty fresh into the workforce. Only like a year, or so, into the workforce. it’s been good so far and I hope it stays that way. 

Nikhil: I don’t know if it’s ever affected my work in any way. Especially, because my first job was pizza and my second job is this. But, as for like my creativity I think it does. For my degree, there’s a couple of story writing classes I have to take. I’ve done story writing before. I’ve done script writing, story writing before, and I’ve noticed that when I talk to some of my classmates and my colleagues; they don’t look at things the same way I do. Which is in that most of my classmates, who I know who’ve like grown up in America, who lived in America, the ideas that they come up with and that they write down; it’s very reminiscent of things that I’ve seen in America before. You can tell where their inspiration is coming from. You can tell that they’ve taken from here, and then when I’ve shown them my work a lot of the times, and my teachers as well, a lot of them will be interested in the work because they’re like, “oh, I haven’t seen this before.”. I think that might be because I grew up in India and not here. 

Miri: Do you know a way in which that manifests? 

Nikhil: Mostly it’s just in ideas, especially for like script writing or, story writing. Ideas that will manifest, or the way that you think rules, or the world should be, those will often change. I guess stereotypes are a big one. I don’t know if it’s just because I grew up in India, but the stereotypes that I have with people are quite different than the ones that people were grown up here to. 

Global Perspectives and Stereotypes

Nikhil: I will say that when I grew up in India I only visited the states like twice. So, I had stereotypes about America but, me and my friends, we didn’t really have stereotypes about other places in the same way Americans do. Cause we didn’t really care. So, I think that’s one thing that helps. My friends will sometimes have like stereotypes and minds for characters that I just can’t envision and vice versa.

Miri: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, because there’s a lot of places that the US has close relationships with that India doesn’t and vice versa. I bet you 75% of American high schoolers, maybe even college students wouldn’t be able to point out Pakistan on a map. That is a large part of India’s, at least their political, situation. So, it just comes up more there. 

Michelle: Also, I think our education system here is like really lax, compared to other countries. 

Nikhil: Geography wise too, especially. 

Michelle: Yeah, we don’t get taught geography.

Miri: I know a lot of people, most people I think, who haven’t gone out of their way to look into it, or like, “oh yeah, geography’s not my strong suit.”, and I’m like, “I wonder if it’s just the way that we teach it here?”. We’re like, “okay, Canada is our hat. Mexico is down. That’s it.”. 

Asher: And then everything else is China. Like that’s… 

Miri: Yeah. Yeah. Really 

Michelle: Everything else China. Yep. 

Miri: The five countries are America… 

Michelle: and then also, don’t forget about Africa. Africa is a country, not a continent.

Miri: Yes, exactly. All five countries. We got Europe, we got Canada, we got America. We got China slash Mexico, and we got Africa. 

Asher: China slash Mexico! 

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Also Antarctica. It’s where the penguins live, right?

Nikhil: That’s true! 

Miri: It’s technically not a country. But, yes. 

Asher: I was gonna say! 

Nikhil: Did you know that Argentina tried to claim Antartica? All of the other nations. Were like, “no, we don’t agree to this.”

Miri: Well, they learned it by watching us, and we learned it by watching the British. 

Asher: Leave Antarctica alone. They didn’t do anything.

Nikhil: Three different countries have tried to claim Antartica. It’s really funny.

Asher: Gosh!

Nikhil: None of them have succeeded. 

Miri: The US’ relationship with a lot of countries, especially as individuals who live your whole life here are; there’s the places people go for vacation, there’s the places rich people go for vacation, and there’s the places that your stuff comes from.

Asher: Right? 

Miri: And other places don’t exist. 

Nikhil: Yep. 

Miri: People go to vacation in Florida, rich people go to vacation in Switzerland and Australia, and then your stuff is made in China.

Asher: No, basically! 

Nikhil: Or Bangladesh. That’s a big one I’ve seen. 

Michelle: Oh, yeah. 

Miri: Oh, yeah. Especially if you don’t meet people from those places. You both can’t afford to go there, because flying overseas is incredibly expensive and getting a passport is very difficult.

Michelle: I didn’t think so. 

Miri: It’s often very difficult. 

Michelle: Okay. Yeah. 

Nikhil: I’ve had one since I was born. 

Asher: You haven’t needed to renew it yet. That’s why! 

Nikhil: I’ve renewed it several times. You have to renew your passport every several years.

Asher: I thought it was every 10 years.

Michelle: Like every 10 years.

Miri: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. 

Nikhil: I’ve had to renew it twice.

Asher: I don’t know if that’s a passport.

Nikhil: Yeah, not a fun process. It’s just, you have to sit in line for… Or, at least my experience was, you just stand in line for like an hour and a half, two hours, and you’re just standing and standing. Then you go to the counter, finally, the people there who are like, “yeah, we don’t wanna be here either. We’re gonna make this as inconvenient.” Yeah! It’s like the DMV except for your passport and it’s worse. 

Michelle: Can’t you just mail everything in? I swear…

Asher: Yeah! You can’t actually mail everything in now.

Michelle: That’s what I did! That’s nice.

Asher: So… 

Michelle: interesting.

Miri: Yeah. And what about you, Michelle? Because you described yourself earlier. You’ve lived in Oregon your whole life. 

Michelle: Yeah. I don’t know how to really answer this question. Creativity wise, I’ve been exposed to like Indian artwork. I’ve been exposed to different artwork. So, I’m like, “let’s try everything out, or whatever!” I feel like having multiple cultures growing up, and not just like in my house, like being in the cultures that I was like kind of pushed into. Because, I think it’s made me like more of an open person, more willing to try things, and more like friendly to people or just kind of more easygoing compared to some of the things that I’ve seen in the US. But, yeah. I don’t know how it explains like with work… 

Miri: Well, you have a tremendously strong sense of justice and always have a push for making sure that people who aren’t advantaged can get some advantages and some help and support and resources. So, do you think any of that comes from how you were being treated as different? 

Michelle: Definitely. Just having like the model minority weight being put on me, and not being able to live up to that. I think that’s really impacted me. That’s really all I can think of right now, ’cause this is like a really heavy topic.

Miri: Yeah. ‘Cause we’re all a product of our surroundings. So, some people embrace their surroundings, some people reject them, and some people work to make sure that other people don’t have to put up with things in the same way that they did.

Michelle: Yeah.

Miri: You work for a community college focusing on advocacy and social justice and accessibility for people. So, if you had been born a white kid in those rural places, this might not have been a path that you ended up on. 

Michelle: Yeah, I guess. 

Miri: But, I’m curious. Because, I don’t want to ascribe these things to you that are inaccurate or fanciful. But, if anyone has that kind of thing, I’m curious.

Michelle: I see what you’re getting at. Honestly, right now my brain is just like so overwhelmed with this topic and just everything that’s come on today that I’m just like, “ha!”. Honestly, like any chance I can get to speak up now I try to. ‘Cause, there’s been like moments where I’ve been silent and it’s bothered me. But, just also it’s like 2025. Why are we still where we’re at? 

Miri: Yeah, ’cause that’s an alternative way to look at this. 

Addressing Racism and Advocacy

Miri: As people of color in a space where you do get your voices put out more publicly than most people get. Do you feel like you have the obligation to, more so than someone who is white or someone who comes from those privileged and advantaged places.

Asher: Yeah. I also have a question for you, Michelle. I don’t know if you were still thinking about another question, but what can you do to help others or speak out on racism in general and just like safely too? I also feel like I find myself in situations where like, “that person’s being treated because of how they look or the color of their skin and that does not sit well.”. But, at the same time, I also feel like I don’t wanna get myself involved and also become a target. 

Michelle: If you think about it as a bystander, you are involved. You’re a witness, you’re involved. 

Asher: Become more of a target than just standing there. 

Michelle: Honestly. Like, if you’re witnessing something… Yeah, sure, you could be a target. But, you have to also remember that, for the most part, if you see somebody acting racist you just have to like realize that at the core of everything, it’s probably like fear to get people to act out, like angrily; if that’s what you were talking about? But, then also when you get older and you just deal with people like having tantrums or meltdowns, you’re just like, “okay, I’ve been through this before. I might get yelled at or screamed at, and sure it’s a little overwhelming, but this person’s gonna calm down eventually.”, and more than likely they won’t hurt you, like physically, if that’s what you’re also worried about. I don’t know if that answered your question. 

Asher: Not exactly. What are some steps you can do; whether it’s to deescalate a situation where you are seeing someone who is facing racism or to stop that sort of situation safely. Especially for like us students of color. Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. I would say that like, depending on what it is, if there’s like weapons or something involved; I would say you have to just bring in someone else that can help you with that. I’m also kind of like falling back on my EMS training.

Asher: Pepper spray’s allowed!

Michelle: Yeah, pepper sprays allowed. I think also just trying to figure out how you can slow down situations. If that makes sense? So, just to let them kind of calm down for a little bit and it can take a while, but you honestly just have to have a lot of patience for that. Oh, yeah, and then also you can leave and you can have other people leave and try to get that person, like, not the racist, but…

Asher: The other person that’s the victim. Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. And then also like there was a situation; I was visiting a friend in like Hillsborough, like when I was living on the coast during the pandemic. There was a mixed couple who were moving out of the condo across from them. This girl like was Asian, her partner was like darker skinned. So, the driveway wasn’t like super long to their condo, so the parking officer came and was like. Pretty much like about to tow them, but like they weren’t there for even that long. This guy like comes out and he’s yelling profanities, he’s being completely racist and I was sitting on the balcony across from them. So, I got out my phone and I called the police and they also called the police too. But, I felt like just being an observer, you can kind of also use your presence. Just because you’re a witness doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything. You can just be there and your presence can be intimidating, if that makes sense. Because, the police officers were looking at me and I had my phone and I like raised it up and I was like putting out there where they could see me. So, I have this whole thing, including like the guy arguing with them about the parking, getting their car towed. But, yeah. It was nerve wracking and like people coming out to look at the noise and, yeah. But, if there’s any situations that make you uncomfortable, just leave. ‘Cause sometimes, like the best way of protesting or taking care of a situation is just removing yourself or removing that other person. 

Asher: Oh, yeah, 

Michelle: yeah. 

Asher: What’s a time where you actually have to stand up for yourself? 

Michelle: I don’t know…

Asher: Or not!

Michelle: Like, okay. If you think about it, there’s another really great quote on like how racism is like a form of psychosis. So, honestly, like if you’re standing up for yourself, you just have to know that like there’s limitations on this person who’s acting out. I don’t think that you’re completely responsible for rehabilitating a racist. But, it’s good to stand out because they can be like, “oh, I had this weird interaction that made me feel uncomfortable!”, and if they have the capacity, maybe they could be like, “what was my role in it?”. It’s so hard to self evaluate. 

Asher: It is. Yeah.

Michelle: So, all over the board. It’s, “don’t you understand that the people who do this thing, who practice racism, are bereft. There is something distorted about the psyche, it’s a huge waste, and it’s a corruption, and it’s a distortion. It’s like it’s a profound neurosis that nobody examines for what it is. It feels crazy. It is crazy. It has as much of a deleterious effect on white people as it does black people.”. That’s by Tony Morrison. There we go. Yeah, so…

Asher: That’s a great quote.

Michelle: Yeah, it is. 

Asher: So, it’s just crazy. Basically!

Michelle: No, it’s is! It’s…

Asher: Racism is crazy guys, period! 

Michelle: Like it’s a psychosis. Yeah. 

Miri: All right. 

Closing Thoughts and Final Messages

Miri: So, we have just a few minutes left. Are there any closing thoughts that anyone has they want to share? Asher we can start with you, if you have anything.

Asher: Yeah. I think, like Michelle said, it’s 2025 guys. Enough is enough. Stop treating other people terribly because of how they look and because of the color of their skin. Please just stop. 

Michelle: Yeah! Just get outta the fucking states once in a while! 

Asher: Get out of the states once in a while, stop looking at trash on social media. It’s not good for you. 

Michelle: It isn’t. Oh, gosh. 

Nikhil: Yeah. That’s the big thing. A lot of them are like, “Oh, yeah! America’s the only place that actually mattered.” No! There’s more! There’s things beyond America that you need to deal in. 

Asher: There’s so much beyond America. 

Michelle: Yeah. Get out of the fucking states and don’t go to Cancun! Go to other parts of like Mexico! 

Asher: Go to Asia!

Michelle: If you have like issues, just go backpacking in Asia and you’ll get your shit figured out like that. 

Asher: Go to Malaysia. Go to Malaysia, do some backpacking, hang out with some monkeys, and you’ll be fine.

Nikhil: Don’t hang out with monkeys. Monkeys are the worst. I hate monkeys. Those guys suck. 

Asher: No, that’s character building! That’s character…

Nikhil: Monkeys that someone who lived near close monkeys, those guys sucked. They terrible. Don’t be friends with monkeys, hate them. Zero outta 10. 

Asher: But, it’s character building, let’s put it that way. Hang out with some monkeys, do some character building!

Miri: If you’re a racist, please go hang out with some monkeys. They will beat you up! Monkeys. Your equal opportunity bullies. 

Asher: Yeah, I know. They don’t care what you look like, or how you speak, or whatever! 

Miri: Learn from monkey monkeys. Monkeys don’t care about the color of your skin. They will throw poop at you no matter what. 

Michelle: Or dogs. Just dogs. Love everybody. 

Miri: I’ve met some dogs who have learned from either their owner or a previous owner to be very racist. Monkeys. They’re “everyone-ist”. 

Asher: Anyway, main point is that; to just get out a little bit more and Learn from other people. Learn about other people’s cultures and get out there and meet some new people.

Nikhil: Experience the world. 

Michelle: Yeah. Experience the world and not just like the touristy part of wherever you’re going to, that’s super touristy, that they cater to Americans. 

Asher: Actually go to the rural areas of the city or something. 

Michelle: I feel like we need to get into volunteering again. Because, we have to break the whole capitalist, cult of productivity… 

Asher: Individualistic… 

Michelle: Yeah… Shit storm that we’re in…

Miri: Yeah, thank you everybody for agreeing to take time out of your afternoon to talk to me about this.

Michelle: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!. Portland Community College’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources department, and the PCC Multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify Channel, X-RAY 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio 90.7 FM.