Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Podcast Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/DCA, on Spotify, on XRay 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Community Radio, 90.7 FM..

Miguel’s Introduction

Miguel: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! All Access, a podcast breaking down barriers in Higher Education. From Tech Tips to real stories, we are here to amplify voices in disability and inclusion. I am your host, Miguel Viveros Chavez, welcome to the show. We are so glad you are here with us today. Remember to check all our content on our home webpage: pcc.edu/dca, under “Let’s Talk! Podcast collective”. Let us dive in! So, first I’d like to talk about my early experiences in awareness. I grew up in a very small town in eastern Washington where resources were very limited and by the age of four, I knew that I was different from other kids. You know, other kids would be running around, playing, having so much fun. And I remember one of the stories that I wanna share with you guys. I was about four years old, and I remember I was going to preschool and I was a very inquisitive kid. I always was curious about learning and stuff like that. And one of my, my, my core memories that I remember is I threw my cane away in the garbage because. I realized as a 4-year-old kid that I wanted to be normal like everybody else. And I felt like if I threw it away that I would just be normal. My mom said, of course, and she took it out of the garbage. I think it was a realization as a little kid that, “Oh wow, I’m gonna be different than everybody else.” When I was a kid, it was really hard for me growing up. I was the only blind person in my family, so there wasn’t a lot of connection there with my other family members. It was a bit hard because I dealt with a lot of isolation and I grew up on my own and I think that kind of shapes my perspective of blindness philosophy. As a 4-year-old little boy, I remember feeling so conflicted on who I was as a person, because of that experience, because I felt different from everybody else. I remember also part of that experience, I had my braille letters, and I remember that the paraeducators would pull me aside and have me, work on my name with them while everybody else worked together in groups. That kind of made me feel isolated a little bit more than just sharing those experiences made me realize that my life was gonna be different than all of those kids. As a child, blindness was just part of my life. I was very quiet. I think I went through a stage, especially as a very small child, of wanting to know so many things and having the curiosity. Some of the aspects of that were, always wanted to ask questions and know the world. Unfortunately, I didn’t have that support at home and so that was really hard for me. Because, my parents were working all the time and not really part of my life or wanting to be there or answer questions. So, Dina, my brail teacher, who I got in third grade, she was a huge part of my life and I felt that I could always ask her questions, and it shaped my perspective now as an adult. Because, now I’m not afraid to be blind. I’m not afraid to show my realness, my frankness, my ability to share my experience with other people, my story and my value as a person. I’ve learned that blindness is part of my identity and it’s part of who I am as a human. It’s not everything to me because blindness is just a phase and it’s a lens of what I have to see things through, per se, but it has changed over the years. I was a timid kid who really struggled with just making those connections with people sometimes. Just because I wasn’t having those experiences as some of the other kids that I grew up with. We all grew up in a small town and so a lot of people were driving tractors, or moving hand lines, or doing things that were really just physical. I wasn’t really part of that. ‘Cause we don’t live in a farm. It was just a regular house where we lived in. I didn’t really have a lot of friends growing up. Like, I couldn’t say that I had blind people to hang out with or that I did stuff with my friends. Because, my parents were helicopter parents and that was a really difficult thing growing up, having that. I think now being more embracing with myself and who I am as a human. One of my earliest thoughts of being independent as a blind person. I was 13 years old and I remember the day, like if it was yesterday, and I’ll walk you guys through it. I was with Lori Williams, a orientation and mobility instructor, cane Travel Instructor for The Blind. I was in little town of Connell where I grew up and she took me out on an outing and I was in front of those groceries. They had a little outlet there, little grocery store called Leprechaun. People who are from Cornell in the area know what that store is. She told me, “Hey, Miguel, here’s $10, I want you to go inside and I want you to go to your left. There is people there, ask them you need help getting some bananas, getting a Coke, and you can grab something for yourself.” I remember being so scared and afraid that I was gonna do something wrong or get lost. I remember going into the store with my cane and standing in front of the door, hearing people go in and out. I went up to the counter and there was this older lady and she’s like, “hi honey, how’s it going? Do you need some help?”, and I told her, I remember my voice that was breaking at the time, “Hey, I was sent in to get some stuff. Can I please have some help? I need help finding a drink.”, and she’s like, “well, do you need help finding a soda? Do you need a can of soda or do you need a bottle of soda?”. This was just a person who was not even working there. It was just a nice patron and if they ever hear this story, I want to thank them for sharing that experience with me and being so kind and gentle. So, she went over and asked one of the people who was working, who did customer service. And this gentleman, I don’t remember his name, but I remember he grabbed my arm and he walked me across the store and he asked me, “Hey, what do you need?”. I was like, “oh, hi! I need some bananas, please. I need some bananas. And I also need a Coke or something?”, And he was like, “okay, what kind of coke do you want? Do you want a Diet Coke, or do you want a big bottle or a small bottle, or do you want a 64 ounce or a three, two ounce?”. That was my very first experience of independence. I had the $10 and I actually, we used to have these grade slips and I actually gave him the grade slip instead of the $10. He’s like, “oh, this is not the right thing.”, I’m like, “oh, sorry.”. So, I gave him the $10 bill, and then he helped me pack it up and he walked me to the door. I remember walking with my cane walking forward and exiting the store, and Lori was like, ” Good job! You did a really great job!” I handed her back her change, her bananas and the Coke. I think I had gotten a Sprite, or something as a seventh grader. But, I shared this story because that was like my first experience really going into a store and I was so scared and who would’ve ever thought that years later, I would be doing that on my own and not being afraid to go ask for help and having these things like IRA Access, which is a visual interpreting service that I can call. With my phone, they can describe what’s going on around you using your camera. I share this experience with you guys because it taught me to not be afraid to ask for help. It was in a way where I learned as a kid that I could do anything that I could set my mind to. Having Lori there to explain and just be so patient and kind with me as I was such a young kid; I am so grateful for her and for having that experience of going into a store by myself at 13 for the very first time. I can’t be more than thankful and I take that experience for me forever. There’s so many misconceptions people have about blindness. One of them is that people who are blind are great musicians, yes. There’s a lot of blind people who are musicians that have really great talents. Like for example, I can sing and I can play piano. I grew up in a town where like I ended up having to be in the choir and drama and stuff like that. But, that wasn’t, I didn’t want that to be part of my identity forever. I wanted to learn and to grow and that to be part of my life. But, I didn’t want it to be everything that I was part of. So, as a teenager, I used to lead worship in church and I would play piano and help my uncle’s church and that was a beautiful experience for me growing up. I honestly, don’t regret it. It was something that I learned so much, but it also was really hard on me. Because, I was a teenager and I was growing up and I wanted to have more experience and live a little more. Have the experience of being out with other teenagers and just having friends and going and bowling and just doing teenage things that I didn’t get to do. I helped out a lot in drama and in other aspects of my life where track and field were also very important to me. Each time I go into an Uber ride and ask for help or tell them about my life and they’re like, “oh, you’re so inspiring. You do all of these things! You do dragon boating and you also work two jobs and have time to go out to movies! You’re such an inspiration to even getting outta your house!”. People mean well, but that can be very insulting sometimes. Because, we’re people. Listeners, we’re people just like everybody else and we have goals and needs and wants. We work so hard just like everybody else and, as blind people who have limited vision, we do have dreams and goals. Like we want to be treated like everybody else, because we wanna just have regular lives. We wanna work and pay taxes and have our own places to live. So, when you see a blind person, yes, they can inspire you to do better in your life and be a better person, and to be more proactive, that is great. I just do everything I need to do because it’s part of my life and it’s part of who I am as a person, and it’s just my identity. It’s just to be who I am regardless of what flaws and issues that I may or may not have, or what I may bring to the table. I just share because I want to show people that blind people can do dragon boating, we can have a job or two, and we can live on our own and have our own lives and cook and clean. We may do ’em a little bit differently. Use our hands to touch surfaces to make sure that they’re clean. Not when it’s hot, but we may use different tools like talking thermometers and braille measuring cups and measuring spoons and things of that nature to gauge stuff. My tips and advice is, even with the deaf culture, if there’s an interpreter signing, please look at the person not at the interpreter. The person that’s next to us, they’re not our interpreters. We have our own voice, we have our own opinions, we have our own thoughts and feelings, and just talking to other people instead of asking us what we need is kind of infuriating and it’s very insulting. Because, as people we’re allowed to feel what we do and we’re allowed to ask for what we need. Get this experience all the time when I go to restaurants with friends, because they wanna talk to them and my friends will automatically out loud and say, “Hey, talk to Miguel. Have a conversation with Miguel! Miguel’s amazing. Go have a conversation with him. Ask him what he wants to drink, or ask him if he wants a sauce on a steak. Or ask him if he wants more salt, or more pepper, or some limes.” Just have those conversations. Yes, they’re gonna be uncomfortable. Yes, having those conversations are gonna be uncomfortable and you may not know what to say or how to feel. But, I’ve been asked the same questions over and over and over again all my life. So, not everyone may have the same capacity to answer all of these questions, but know that, we are there as people and please be more kind. My message that I wanna share is like, please be more kind and mindful, if you see someone with a friend introduce yourself to the blind person. Talk to them, have a conversation with them because we can all learn from each other. It’ll be much more a pleasant conversation than, talking to the other person for them, because that is just not nice. It’s not courteous and it is not a really good way to start a conversation with somebody, especially if it’s your first time. It doesn’t look good on you as the person that’s doing it. So, my humble advice is just be yourself. Talk to them, because you never know what you’re gonna learn and you may find a new friend. A lot of things are not physically accessible in the US. I think other countries beat us in access issues. There’s a lot of places, that have ramps and have the basic ADA push buttons across the street that are audible and things of those natures. But, I think that we need to make sure that everyone can access all of these things. All of the different aspects; aP for example, I would love to see more braille maps and tactile maps of buildings just to know, where am I at? Where am I going? I know technology is great and that technology can tell us to an extent. But, also sometimes I just want to have a physical, tangible thing that I can feel with my hands to know where I’m located or where I’m going. I think that’s really important having more braille signs, having real braille signs. There was a friend of mine who told me of a place in a hospital in New York City, where they had braille signs, but the signs in braille were in print. They were print dots. They were not real braille. So, having real braille signs is something that’s very important. Having large print and signs in multiple language, that’s also a really good thing as well. Just having the experience of if things were much more accessible, it would help everyone. I don’t think it would just help with the blind. Curb cuts help people in wheelchairs, but they also help people who have strollers, who have walkers. Just things of that nature that we can all do to leave a little grain of hope. One of my favorite memories that I have; I created the very first accessibility club at Clark College, and I wanted to make a space for all people with disabilities, for them to feel included and feel welcome. As the president, I created “2020 Visionaries” back in 2020. My experience with that was amazing. We had a really good advisor, Audrey Hagan, along with another coworker who I worked with. It was just really great to have those experiences with them. What made it inclusive is I opened it up to all people with disabilities. I opened it up to staff members for them to feel comfortable and have a place every single week to come in and talk about your struggles and the good things that were going on and what were the bad. It was just great to have even students who were not part of the disabled community, just be there, just so they could learn and be part of the community and be allies. It was just a beautiful experience that I will never forget for the rest of my life, being part of that creation and that establishment of a disability resource, club. That was something that I’ll never forget. I’ve learned that blindness is part of my identity. It’s part of who I am as a person and as a mixed minority of being a man of color of Hispanic descent, first generation college graduate who happens to be blind; it’s part of my identity. Because, a lot of Hispanic culture and Latino culture, people with disabilities are not really taken well or serious. A lot of people in Latino culture have this ” poor me” attitude, or “poor him”, or “poor her” because they may be in a wheelchair, or they may be blind, or Deaf, or have down syndrome, or whatever it may be. Part of my identity, as a blind person, is to showcase myself and showcase who I am as a person. With all my identities and all my aspects of life. I really enjoy sharing that with people, because it’s part of my life. Every single blind person is unique to who they are as people, and their stories are all different. None of us blind people have the same story. My relationship with blindness has changed so much over time. I think as an adult, I’ve been able to embrace it. I’m not afraid. I am much more confident in who I am as a person. I do not pity myself for being blind. It is just part of my life. I think I’ve had to cope and change so many things because as a blind person, I hate crowds. It’s just too loud for me to try to understand what is going on, and that’s okay. But, I’ve also have learned a lot about myself. When you’re blind or have other disabilities, not just blindness, you use up a lot of energy making sure everything is correct and in shape . There’s a lot of pre-planning that people don’t know about that happens in the background. I do it so easily that a lot of people are like, ” how do you get all these things done? How do you do so much?” I make a mental plan of what I wanna do, but I also have my secondary third and fourth plans just in case if one thing doesn’t go through I can make an exatory plan of what I need to finish and complete for that day. A lot of it takes energy, it takes so much energy out of me. I have to be really mindful of what I want to use that energy for. For example, I could use my energy going in an hour and a half to work, but is that really feasible energy and being exhausted all day? Or do I wanna take an Uber and not be exhausted using my energy to have to listen to carts moving around on Amazon or my current workplace? Do I want to use other skills and make sure that I’m actually doing my job correctly? It all depends on the human and all depends on people and how they choose to elaborate and do things, and that’s okay. That’s just my experience. It’s been helpful doing dragon boating and I’m actually starting coaching training, just to have a little more exercise and daily routine in my life. I’m really excited about that as well. But, I had to put myself out there and get myself together, most of the time, in order for me to make sure that I need to get done with what needs to happen throughout the day. This is my personal opinion; that if I wasn’t blind, I wouldn’t be grateful for all the things that I have. I’ve completed so much being blind and I think if I was sighted, I wouldn’t be grateful for the many things that I’ve done. If I was sighted I don’t think I would’ve moved to a city. I don’t think I’ve ever would’ve moved out of a small town. I think my life would’ve been completely different. I probably would’ve been married off by now. I probably would’ve, been working in the fields in the agriculture. Doing something completely different. I don’t think I would’ve gone through higher education. I think some of the things I think would be great. Being sighted would be great, like be able to drive everywhere. But, it’s chosen me. I’ve been able to learn from those experiences and that’s the beautiful thing about it is that I’m really patient with myself. I gauge my words, I gauge what I’m gonna say sometimes, and I gauge what I wanna learn. But, also I’m not afraid to tackle things head on and make sure that I have those type of experiences. Regardless, I’m like really proud of myself for making it as far as I have with sometimes not having the support of loved ones, and that’s been the hardest thing for me, as a blind person. Is not having the support and care from people who are supposed to be there for you. Everyone can be a leader. I think everyone has those potentials. A good leader listens, a great leader and advocate doesn’t advocate for just themselves, but advocates for all other people regardless of who they are. A good. Communicator is someone who’s willing to learn and learn from their experience, or my experience per se, and have the opportunity to share different viewpoints and be able to learn and change and grow. Sometimes you don’t need to lead. Sometimes you need to sit down and follow someone else and have them mentor you. So, for my life, I’ve had a lot of great mentors. For example, a couple years ago I met this amazing person at PCC, Dr. Clifford Meeks and if you are a man of color who identifies. As a man who is BIPOC, I would recommend you signing up for the Men of Color Leadership Program. It was such an insightful program for me as a human being, and I loved learning so much about being there for our sisters of color and being there for women in general. I’m always learning and growing, and so I may not know everything. I can only speak, to my experience as a Hispanic blind man, I can’t speak to other experiences, and I recognize that, and I think that’s a huge issue in the advocacy worlds. A lot of people are complacent, and sometimes you cannot be complacent as an advocate. You have to learn, you gotta research, you gotta be uncomfortable in order for you to grow. When you’re uncomfortable in the most uncomfortable places, that is when you grow. That’s when you learn, and that’s when you can be more established as a human and as a person. I’m really open, in my story, I share my struggles. I share my good moments and my bad, because that’s the beautiful thing of podcasting a philosophy of blindness. If I don’t share the struggles that I have with you guys; for example, I have a lot of anxiety sometimes and it’s really hard for me sometimes to go to work, because I just get horrible anxiety. Sharing that with you guys, I’m not afraid to share my good moments and my bad moments. Because, especially today in how media is superficial and everybody wants to the perfect picture, or the perfect family, or the perfect portrait of oneself that’s not reality. Like we are humans and we’re flawed. Having that experience of sharing my experience with other people and not being afraid to show that is something that I personally love about myself. I struggle with anxiety and sometimes I do struggle with depression too and it’s really hard, because sometimes I don’t wanna go to Dragon Boat practice. I don’t wanna get up and be, “hey!”, all happy and cheery and, “yay, it’s great and it’s roses and rainbows!”. No, that’s not always the case. Some days I’m really low energy and I can be really tired. It’s not easy sometimes, but it also has taught me to be more resilient with myself. More patient, more kind, and to give myself more grace. That’s what I’ve learned in the last couple of years, especially with those bad moments, that we can face as humans and that I face every day. I think my purpose in blindness; it shows a lot of people that I’ve shown a lot of people through my life and how I carry myself in ways where blindness has changed my life forever. Has changed people’s lives. Because, they think his blindness as, “oh, this is such a tragedy!”, and such a negative connotation. But, when they see my life and ask questions and they see me running around putting podcasts together, advocating for justice, paddling on the river, working at night, and being tired. But, here he still shows up and goes to work every day and still has time for his friends and his loved ones. It’s not an easy task. But, it’s something that blindness has shaped my life for the better, because it’s made me not wanna be so fearful. A lot of times when I was very young, I was very fearful, and now I’m not afraid to go try something new. What do I got to lose trying something new? I can find a new hobby, I can make new friends and that’s something that I can carry with me; something new and a golden experience. I’m gonna go do training for the first time this year and I’m excited about that. I don’t know how it’s gonna go and I’m his very first blind person, he’s a little scared, but you know what? I’m gonna help him as much as I can and guide him so that he can have other blind clients too. I had the pleasure to interview my friend, justice, and here’s what he had to say on this topic.​Hello everybody and welcome to our very first episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Today we will be interviewing Justice Chuckwell. Justice, welcome to this show. We’re so excited to have you here today.

Justice’s Introduction

Justice: Hello, viewers and listeners! I’m so happy to be here with Miguel.

Miguel: Thank you. And Justice, tell the listeners about yourself, like tell them your background.

Justice: Yeah, I’m simply a young blind man. Charming blind man, that’s how I describe myself. I have a bachelor’s degree, I am from Nigeria, I moved to the US, and I’m so happy to be part of this podcast.

Miguel: Tell the listeners, what was your journey to get to the US? You bring a unique perspective of coming from Nigeria into the US. As for my life. I was born here in the US from parents who immigrated, into the US themselves. But, tell us a little bit more about that experience and how was that like for you coming in to the US?

Justice: I’m a first generation immigrant as far as, immigration is concerned here in the United States. This means that I came all alone. I didn’t come with my parents, and my parents are not in America. So, as a first generation immigrant there was quite a lot of hurdles and challenges that I needed to encounter. Coming to America from Nigeria wasn’t quite an easy task, but it was something that required courage. I knew where I was headed, I knew what I wanted, I had my vision, I had my goal, and all these things spurred me to take on this risk of being here alone for the past how many years right now? I’m still happy that I’m here. I’m still happy that my values are still needed. That I’m being recognized and respected and, I am attending institutions where the need is greater for me to bring my, experience and stuff like that. So, it’s been a journey. But, I am still on it and I’m so happy that I am still on the journey. Because I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and that has been inspiring me to keep moving.

Miguel: You bring up some really good points, Justice. You had so much courage you had to do this alone to come from Nigeria into the US. What does blindness mean to you? Like, if you could break that down. How has blindness shaped you?

What Blindness Means to Justice

Justice: Blindness is my identity. I did a video on my own. So, just a little introduction. I have my own media. So, I do shoot videos of my life and stuff like that. My media is “OhMyEnchantingCastle”, one word. So I did a video, fairly recently, where I talked about conquering identity crisis. I see blindness as an identity, and in my video, I talked about me finding it when I was younger. Because I was told that blindness is not a good thing. So, we did both spiritual and medical consultations to see how we can get; by we, I mean my parents, my family, get rid of blindness, right? But, I realized at some point that blindness is my identity. I don’t have to fight it. I have to embrace it, and it’s been helping me. I’ve been getting stronger, I’m having more confidence ever since I realized that I needed to embrace my blindness. So, blindness to me is beyond what could be compared to having physical eyes or ability to see. But, it is an identity for me, and I have embraced it. Yeah.

Miguel: That’s awesome. Embracing blindness, is something that’s super important for listeners to learn and to know about. Especially people who are young; teenagers, young adults that are really starting off in life. Some people may not know what they wanna do with their lives, or what things they want to learn or where they want to go. Learning, embracing blindness is something we both share and have in common, you know? Tell us a little more, how you found your identity. Was it experiences in your teenage years or in the beginning of your young adult life that you’re like, “Hey, I wanna embrace this!”.

Justice: I think blindness as my identity is something that I have over time, reflected on and I have discovered that, fighting blindness for me is a waste of my time. I have quite a number of things, very important to do with my time. I also have come to terms that, with technology and, as you know, we keep having improvements. Blindness shouldn’t be much of a big deal. I also appreciate the fact that the earlier actually I embraced my blindness, the better for me. Because, identity crisis can lead to low self-esteem, can lead to lack of confidence and question who you are. Question if you are really at the right place. So, there’s a lot that comes with identity crisis. But, since I have embraced this blindness, I came to conclusion that the next thing for me is to secure my space in the society as a blind person. I don’t have to dismiss that anymore. Also there may be some challenges associated with blindness, but it’s still a strength, you know? And, I don’t have to dismiss that reality.

Experiences with Blindness Culture

Miguel: How does blindness culture look growing up for you?

Justice: Well, I think the evolution of blindness culture over the years is something very, I would say, remarkable. But, sometimes I ask myself, what exactly is going on in this 21st centuries? We still have lack of awareness of how blindness operate. But, I would say, typically, it has been evolving, in several ways. So, the evolution of the blindness culture is such that, people are now beginning to realize that it’s not all about sight. It’s not all about being able to see. People are now realizing that a blind person could do certain things that nobody would ever think they could have, in the past. People are now realizing that it is okay to be in relationship with a blind person. People are now realizing that blind persons are very, intelligent. I remember when I was in school, my classmates were stealing my answers. They were stealing my answers. Because I would be at the forefront, writing my exams and I use typewriter. So, the next persons behind me will be “giraffing” and stretches the neck forward. So, they will be on their seat, but they will stretch their neck to steal my answers.

Miguel: Wow.

Justice: Yeah, and people are now realizing that it’s just; okay, sometimes to be blind. But, I know that some society, they still have their bias about blindness. I’m hoping that belief would go with them and not be transferred to some elements or some individuals, in our generation. But, I think everything still depends on awareness creation and being creative in making those awareness.

Miguel: Yeah, you bring up a really good point. You know, ’cause nowadays, in social media, people can post about; they may be blind, but do X thing, or sports, or whatever they’re into. Show the world what things that they can do. But, you also bring up a valid point as well that society still has a lot of biases towards blind people in general. When people see certain blind people, they may see us as like, heroic or different because of whatever reasons. Or because we may participate in certain sports or be part of different activities or social groups or whatever it may be, you know? I think that part of society, of us being out in societies, some people will never understand. I’ve learned also to like embrace that as well. Some people will never understand what we may face. Philosophy of blindness of why people advocate for themselves, or why people have to be more outspoken about certain subjects or materials in their lives. It’s important for people to know that we’re still human at the end of the day; we still have flaws, we’re still human, and want to be accepted into society norms as best as we can in a world that was not meant for anyone with disabilities.

Justice: I hope that one day we don’t even talk about acceptance anymore.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: Because, acceptance is more or less like a give and take of power. So, I hope one day that I don’t need to seek validation. I don’t need to seek permission to be who I am, as a blind individual in any society. Just imagine if world is originally built by blind people; how accessible it will be to those blind people and may not be access accessible to other individuals. But, the point is that it is a work in progress, and I want to appreciate some tech industries that have been really, really, really working hard because you talked about social media.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: Working hard to make the social media accessible for blind people. Apple products, apple companies, they have been very, very great in helping and making sure that they update their softwares and make everything very accessible for blind people, as far as content creation is concerned. They also have a 24/7 apple line for individuals with disabilities to ask questions and seek technical assistance. So, why I mentioned Apple is because I use it and I want to give them their flowers and also want to challenge other tech industries, in case they are not doing what Apple is doing. They should please take some cues from Apple and make their technology very accessible. Because blind people have a lot of stories. They have a lot of inspiration to share, but without accessible media they will go down the grave with their stories. So, effort has to be increasingly made to make the social media very accessible for blind people. Not just blind people, but ’cause we’re talking about blindness today. That way awareness creation would increase, people will know that these individuals with blindness, or low vision, or vision loss, as a case maybe, are actually human beings. “Oh, we didn’t believe that they could do this!” Like in my videos; sometimes people don’t believe that we could cook, we could make food. Sometimes people don’t even believe that blind people could take their showers without coming out with soap, or whatever, on their skin. People don’t believe that blind people could, speak to the mirror, without necessarily seeing themselves.

Miguel: I do that all the time.

Justice: Yeah. So, there is a lot of elementary things, very basic that people don’t believe that blind persons could do. People don’t believe that blind persons could even step their feet, like take a step forward. without someone to support them. Sometimes I would be asked some funny questions; maybe when I want to use the stair. People ask me, are you able to use the stairs, or do you need an elevator? That’s a good question, a genuine question, right? But, it sounds so funny, because I would imagine, what do you think I am? And sometimes I would jokingly tell them, “Hey, I’m just blind.” My blindness doesn’t affect my movement, doesn’t affect my mobility. So, if you are asking the question because you realize I’m blind, then you are wrong. But, if you’re asking the question on the basis of you could ask any other person because you don’t know if they have mobility challenge or challenges, then you are Right. So, it all depends on awareness and how people have appreciated blindness and acknowledge that blindness isn’t just the end of the road.

Miguel: Also it’s really good to say as well that some people are okay with them being asked questions. I tell people all the time that for me, oh, I don’t mind sharing specific things. But I also tell them that , “hey, we’re also people”, and you may run into someone else that may not want to share that experience or may not be comfortable with their blindness to share about their lives and that’s okay. Because, we all have unique, different experiences and the ability to want or may not wanna share our stories. We were talking about social being out there, but what social aspects, could be changed regarding blind culture?

Justice: Well, there are quite a number of them, but I can just maybe highlight very few. One is, seeing blind people the way they are, and seeing them as a normal human being. Do not approach them with PD, simply because they’re blind. Understanding that blindness has moved beyond medical, but it is something that even some people aspire to be. Because I have owned and honed my blindness. The mere fact that blind people were used to being led, literally speaking, right? So, they’re being held by the hand and without being directed by individuals, they wouldn’t walk or travel. That era is gone, right? People should not take that and translate to the social constructs, that we are currently building in our modern world. So, you led me, you helped me, you directed me to where I was going doesn’t mean that you would also direct me in the office or that I cannot work in the office. I mean, I had argued that these guys who’s stole my answers in exam. They passed the exams because of my answers, and now when I applied for job, they applied for job; they would be the first to be hired? How does that make sense? I mean, you stole my answers. You applied for a job with my stolen answers, and you got the job. But, me that had the answer, I applied for the same job and I didn’t get it. It doesn’t make sense. So, hires or employers should be thinking out of the box. Realizing that a blind person can be a leader. It doesn’t take your physical eyes unless you’re working in the military. And I’m sure that one day there may be a time that you could be blind and you’d be in the military, So, that’s another thing. So, I talked about not using PD on, on blind people, and talk about allowing blind people to take leadership positions, because they deserve it. Then another thing is, understanding that blind persons are normal human beings, that could make mistakes. That could also commit crime. Because, sometimes, people see blind people as angels, people that were never seen, or do not have the propensity of doing wrong. And that’s why they are very, very shocked when they hear that a blind person has committed something. They feel very disappointed, or, ” this is not what I expected of a blind person. My question will be, why? What makes this blind person different? He is just blind. Being blind doesn’t mean that he’s not gonna behave as humans. So, it’s important to also highlight that part, like, blind person can make mistakes, blind persons can be accountable. Blind persons could be rewarded again for their work. When you are rewarding a blind person for their work don’t reward them and link the reward to their blindness. Again, because they’re human beings. They work. You could, for sentimental reasons, I would say, reward them. But, the truth is that not every blind person would tolerate that. Not every blind person would accept that. So, they want to be treated equally, but at the same time, there is a need to apply equity in promoting inclusion, and that is what we always preach. You know, inclusion is the goal, and there is no way equality can achieve that goal. So, equity is important, but do that with respect.

Miguel: Yeah, equity and inclusion are definitely two aspects of my life as well, that I take, really close to heart regarding employment and in those realms. I was thinking, I know perceptions of people are different because of what they see in the movie or like what they see in the media. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think blindness, of perception in the media kind of has to do with a little bit of how people are treated? Sometimes? Like, for example, people will see me outside and they’re like, “oh, why aren’t you wearing sunglasses?”. Or like, ” are all blind people good at, you know, musical instruments?” And I’m like, “not all of us. Some of us, we may be musically talented, but we’re not Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder.” what are, what are your thoughts, Justice?

Justice: I think it is, in my opinion, at this time, what I can say is; it is primarily the job of blind people to change the narrative and be proactive in doing that. So, what I would do personally is sometimes I sit down to reflect.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: I reflect, on my blindness and my journey and also reflect on feedback. From individuals, and that helps me to be very proactive in doing certain things. So, sometimes in my videos, I could just do my video without my glasses, and I know that I have a beautiful set of eyes. I don’t brag about it. People have told me that, but I also acknowledge that not all eyes are the same. Some people may not sees as beautiful, and due to that unique eye condition. But. Then I would encourage that you hone it, own it, whatever, however. Because, sometimes people wear their glasses because they’re shy. They don’t want their eyes to be seen, or they don’t look too good. No, no. Nobody defines how you look. You have to define it yourself. Yes. Sometimes I’ll tell people in my videos, “I am blind. So, what?”. Like, so what? Sometimes I will go as far as using my Nigerian, I would say “now blind. I blind. I know. Keep.”, what does that mean? “I am simply blind. I didn’t commit murder.” Blindness doesn’t mean that I’m a criminal. So, leave me alone. Just leave me with my kids. Let me enjoy my day. Enough of, being allowed to fit into the box. Nobody has a right to pin me in a box. Nobody has that right. So, what I’ve been doing all through my life is to assess, and discover those boxes that society has historically put people in, and see if they are reasonable or not. The unreasonable ones. I push them, I break them. Break those boxes, right? But, I think, like I said, it is primarily the work of blind people, especially some of us that have more access to technology, more access to education, more access to, networking. It is our responsibility to be who we are and preach it, you know. Tell people we don’t even have to expect people to ask, you know.

Miguel: Yeah. Having your mental spaces is something that’s important.

Justice: Not just having it, but grabbing it.

Discussing Life Skills

Miguel: What are some life skills people with blindness should learn?

Justice: I don’t know. I think everything is open for everybody. At least, I’ve read that we have blind medical doctors, we have blind nurses. Of course there some skills might be more challenging than the others. Some skills are still very stereotypically excluded or exclusive. I mean, in a modern world, speaking from my own background; I am in the media and I love to speak to the camera. So, anyone who love to speak to the camera should also learn and keep practicing how to present themselves, and in doing that, of course, you have to look clean. Looking clean doesn’t mean that you are not blind anymore. Because we are in a competitive world. So, you have to dress properly the way you wanna present yourself. The way you wanna present your message. If you wanna be real, if you wanna be natural, if you want to do some makeups. Just know that you are in the market selling your products. So, if we are saying, that we need to be accepted, that’s we are able to the task, we can do it, then prove it and show it, right? So, maybe in Amazon or anywhere where blind people could learn your own skills. Sometimes you take time and practice certain things by yourself. Have your own unique way of doing things. The most important thing is that something is done. A goal is achieved. It doesn’t matter most of the time how you achieve it, but you have to know your own strengths and how to harness them. So, those are some skills; sometimes even speaking skill, being a public speaker, being able to speak and speak to the hearts of your audiences. Knowing how to use your voice to convince people. Some are into music or they have passion for music. How do you make your music career outstanding? I think politics could be also a career and a skill. Because I believe when you talk about skills, you may be referring not just to skills per se, but to career. So, on that note, those are the things that, blind people should be doing to break the James. Get out of the blindness box or out of the box in general. Yeah, so there’s quite a number of skills. You could go to the Oregon Commission for the Blind. They would help, they would recommend skills that you may need, at least to gain access to get your foot in the door of the society. Then when you are there in the society, you explore. and have your own niche. So, those are the things that I would say right now at the top of my head.

Miguel: Yeah, all those skills are important to anyone that deals with blindness recording. If you’re young or if you’re older, going into blindness or have already dealt with blindness, all your life. It’s also important to know that it’s okay to make those mistakes. But, learning from them and maybe, asking for feedback or, the ability to not just learn, but understand that if one way doesn’t work to complete a task it’s okay if it takes too much longer. It’s okay If there is other ways to complete that specific, skill that you wanna learn. As you know, in the blind society there is many people, in general, maybe scared or have whatever excuse they may need, for not completing a task or learning a new skill or whatever that their problem may be. But, it’s important to know that shouldn’t stop you from like achieving anything you want to do. I think when people have grit, fight, and are willing to do whatever it takes to break those molds, and not let those things stop them; I believe, wholeheartedly, that that’s the way that we can all learn and be better people. You bring up a great point about, marketing and branding and how you present yourself to other people with confidence and to be able to stand on your own feet, and know that like what you believe for, what you care for, and all your identity it all comes together and learning that those skills are learned. But, we also change as humans throughout the years. I had a professor tell me one time, that as students, and as students of life, that we should always be changing and we will not be our same selves from a year ago or other perspectives of that way. Because we all learn and manage to adapt to new circumstances. I also, moved into Oregon by myself without knowing a lot of new people here. So, one of the things that I had to learn quite young was to advocate for myself and to be an advocate for others. In today’s society, learning to not just embrace blindness as an identity, but we also, as a society, need to hold ourselves accountable for anything that we may have to change. If it’s educational wise or you want more access to books or materials. Like we need to reach out to those vendors and have those conversations with people, but learn how to use the correct words, use the correct terminology to make those conversations and have the openness of being; if I can figure out a certain way, then it works for me, and that’s it. And that’s great and all for those people. But, for anyone that you know, wants to be like; “Hey, I wanna change this and have those conversations with other people” and be a change maker, it takes work. It takes grit and it definitely takes change. And change does not come, quickly. I know in today’s society with technology, we have so much that can definitely help us learn and grow from any type of topic. We could definitely, Google them up and I love to expand myself and challenge myself to be a better person each day. My final question for you is, what myth should be broken of blindness in the employment field? I know a lot of people have like different perspectives or ideas, but what are your thoughts?

Justice: I think just like what we’ve been saying on this. The myth that a blind person cannot perform That should be broken. Blind persons have proven over time that they can perform. The myth that’s supporting a blind person to perform requires too much commitment and money and blah, blah, blah, that should be broken. Because the society was originally structured against blind people, and for blind persons to fit in there must be an adjustment, and that adjustment may cost anything. So, imagine a world originally designed by blind people. People who are not blind may also be having similar complaint. So, it is to me, unfair to think that because company A is spending on blah, blah, blah, for accommodating a blind person to do their job. They can take it. No, that’s not fair. So, I think it’s an opportunity for me to make this advocacy very clear. The society really, really wants to be better. if everybody really wants to make the world a better place, there is a need to make an adjustment. An adjustment may cost fortunes, may cost money, may cost time. So, one is that a blind person cannot do it. That is not true. And, two, that a blind person, it takes a lot to keep a blind person, that is not true. I mean, the society actually should even apologize to blind people for being structured in a way to exclude them over the years, and now that they are working hard to include them, they should do that with empathy and respect. Blind people, as well, should not relax or feel that they are entitled, or feel that they are in charge, or feel that they’re not well received or treated the way they would want. But, instead they should work and walk with the society to make the work better.

Miguel: Yeah, bringing awareness on both ends something that’s definitely needed. And, being open with your coworkers is Something that I personally have learned over the years. My experience with employment, i’ve been very grateful and super honored to been able to have multiple roles in different aspects. One of the lessons that I’ve learned from each different place or each time I’ve gotten to work with a new organization, or whatever it may be, is having that teamwork and willingness to have an open conversation. As a blind person myself, with the employer, having a candid and open conversation about like what you may need to be successful, being sure about your skillset, being sure about who you are as an employee, and what you bring to the table, or important skills to have . I’ve had dealt with this myself too. Being insecure of like, I don’t know if I can complete this job because of whatever reason or have doubts and that’s okay. Having doubts is not a bad thing. But, I learned throughout the years that when I’ve given 110% and fought not in a way that like I feel entitled in any way. Because I don’t feel myself as entitled to anything. When you work for something hard and get the opportunity, knowing where you come from and knowing what you value as an employee and in yourself, and be able to be teachable. Did you have any thoughts on some of what I’ve shared?

Justice: Yeah. I think, knowing your value still goes back to knowing who you are, and knowing what you are able to bring to the table. Knowing that blindness is a different lens. Doesn’t mean that the lens is dark. People as a case, maybe have their own lens from which they see things. Then blindness is also a different lens. So, if you are able to acknowledge that and be willing to prove that, to show that, then you’re bringing a very great value to a team. I don’t know much about job seekers who are blind, but I would imagine that, a reasonable blind person would like to not prove that they’re blind, but show that they can do the job and they can do it in a different way. So, when I do write my cover letter sometimes I say, “despite being blind, I was able to triumph”, or “did you know I did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”. That way I am saying that, “hey, my blindness is a strength and not a weakness.”. So, it depends, I think every blind person should have some marketing skills. How to present themselves and sell their products because blindness to me is a product that I’m selling to the world now and people are buying into it. In my videos, my social media, I sell blindness as a product and I notice sometimes millions will buy my products. So, we need that marketing skills. Let’s sell our products, and the world would feel inspired, targeting into what we have.

Closing Thoughts

Miguel: Any thoughts you have for listeners?

Justice: So, it’s my listeners. It was such a pleasure making this podcast with Miguel. Miguel has been my friend. We didn’t introduce ourselves that way, but I’ve known him and I’ll be very happy to keep learning more about him. I’ll be very happy again, in case you see me on the way. My name is Justice Tupu; if you see anyone whose name is Justice that speaks like me, just stop and say hi to me. Okay. Even if I’m walking on the streets. Let’s keep the ball rolling and hopefully we’ll get there. We’ll break all access barriers and make our society a better place.

Miguel: Yeah! I love it, Justice! I love that you bring that up of breaking the access barriers in society. ‘Cause, it’s something that has to be done in order for us to move forward with all our goals or dreams or aspirations. Thank you again for, coming onto the interview today and allowing me to chat with you and learn more about your experiences and your thoughts about philosophy of blindness, your perceptions, how it has changed, and what we need to do as a society to become better advocates for ourselves and others. I really enjoyed this opportunity and it was a great experience for me. To our listeners, thank you guys for listening. Make sure to follow us and have a great day everyone.

Podcast Outro

Michelle: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk Portland Community College’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education and disability resources department and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website. Our Spotify Channel, X-RAY 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio, 90.7 fm.