Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman and Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/DCA, on Spotify, on XRay 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Community Radio, 90.7 FM.

Miri: In April of 2025, Portland Community College announced their intention to shut down their Music and Sonic Arts program. This announcement came as a shock to students and faculty whose perception is that the program is unique, pioneering and thriving. Last night on May 15th, dozens of students and faculty members rallied at a meeting of the PCC Board of Directors to voice their support of the MSA program. Before that, I got the chance to speak with a few of them about their experiences with the program, as well as with Darcy Demers, a longtime academic advisor for this program. In full transparency, this is the program that I, Miri Newman, graduated from the spring of last year. Yeah. So, first if I could just get name pronouns and your major here. 

Drusilla: Yeah. My name’s Drusilla Schnittke, um, I use she/they pronouns and I’m in the Music and Sonic Arts and Creative Coding program, both associates degrees. 

Sam: My name is Sam Schrader. My pronouns are he/him. I am in the Creative Coding and Immersive Technologies path, which is part of the broader, uh, Music and Sonic Arts program. 

Renee: Uh, my name is Renee Raddicks, my pronouns are she/her. Technically, I’m on track right now for two associate’s degrees, one in the Creative Coding and Immersive Technologies pathway, and one in the Music and Sonic Arts pathway, which are both kind of part of the same department, they have a lot of overlap. Um, so I’m doing both of these right now. 

Darcy: My name is Darcy Demers. I use she/her pronouns, and I’m the academic advisor for PCC’s Music and Sonic Arts Program, housed out of the Cascade Campus up here in North Portland. 

Erin: Uh, my name is Erin Genova. Uh, currently I am a Music and Sonic Arts, um, major person. I am like working towards an associates in Creative Coding, and then my pronouns are, I have no preferred pronouns, but, you know, I guess non-binary works, you know?

Experiences in the Music and Sonic Arts Program

Miri: Mm-hmm. So what has the Music and Sonic Arts program been for you? 

Renee: So, I’ve been a musician for a long time. I’m in my like late twenties. I’m gonna be 30 this year. Um, I have been. I’ve studied music for a lot of my childhood. Like I studied music in high school. I’ve been, I’m a self-taught, like, semi-professional musician. Um, I think that like, this is the first time I’ve been in a department that has the kind of, I don’t know, like I’ve, I’ve gotten a lot of good information from a lot of good teachers in Portland and throughout my childhood, but this is the first time where I feel like I’ve actually been instilled with confidence to kind of create my own art, whatever it is, and where, I feel accepted for who I am. Encouraged to like pursue my truth in the artistic world, like given a bunch of resources and encouraged to go places with them, talked up and not talked down. I think it’s like really, really common in academic music to like talk people down a lot and it’s like a culture of putting people down and a culture of talking about how people aren’t good enough and like this is, this program’s nothing like that. It’s been extremely encouraging. It’s also pushed me a lot, which has been really great. It’s a thing that I really strive to find. I think my. Confidence has like bloomed since I’ve been here. There’s all these different, like things I know how to do now that I don’t, didn’t know how to do before, you know, like good in academic program. Um, there’s been very little of the program, which feels like I’m just doing it for the sake of doing it. I kind of came here as an educator in part because I wanted to, um. Brought in the amount of stuff that I can teach to students. I’ve also been a music educator for a long time, like at least like five years, seven years. Um, which, you know, I’m in my twenties, that’s not, it’s is most of my life at this point. Um, so my background’s in jazz, but I’ve always had like a very deep appreciation of a lot of contemporary music, electronic music, hip hop, like I’m a huge hip hop fan. Like, oh my God. Like, I think it’s some of the most incredible music that’s been created in the past, like, a hundred years, you know? And like, it’s really hard to find programs that take this stuff seriously and don’t just treat it as like a footnote for like, you know, the classical music canon, which I think there’s a lot of merit to the classical music canon, but like, it’s just not, I don’t know, it’s not relevant to what a lot of people wanna learn. And like, I’m excited because. Music is this like liberating self-expression thing, right? And like, this is one of the first programs I found that really seems to believe that and engages if that’s the case, you know, and it’s, it’s invigorated a lot of my hope and excitement in education, like being a music educator is very difficult. Like it, this program’s making me want to keep doing it, making me want to wear my life to it, you know? Which is saying a lot, you know, given the way that the music education system is, and like, especially education as a whole is to trans people, you know. 

Miri: What has the music, so arts program been to you?

Drusilla: Very much a haven. Um, I moved here from very far away. And was having an awful time, like acclimating and, and, and getting used to a lot of just differences and also anxieties about home and stuff. And yeah, I started going to PC PCC at some point. I was, I had been serious about music for a few years now. Um, and I was, uh, taught in a different school of like teaching, um, in music. Uh, it was closer to like German classical mm-hmm. Education. Um, and a lot of it was just teaching me how to lean into the way I’ve been learning to see music in a way of like, everything is music. Like we teach Pauline Oliveros things. And, and that also ’cause I, I’m interested in musical education, like Renee and like that has just learning this new school and looking at how it differs from ours and, and how, how, like it’s two different languages. And the fact that we have such amazing professors that I can talk to this about, like Sarah and Jesse, our heads, are the best music teachers I’ve ever met. Because the amount of care that goes into teaching and the amount of understanding they have, especially for neurodivergent people and like, like they never rage quit, which is amazing. And they never rage, which is also amazing. But yeah, it’s, it’s been very much kind of a way to feel more planted on the ground and feel at home. And the community is great. The resources are great. 

Sam: I actually already have a degree in film, so I’m going back to school. Um, and for me it seemed like creative coding would be a really great way to combine my. Interests in art, um, and being a creative person with, um, the sort of practicality of studying something in the computer science realm as well as, um, fostering my just interest in computer science and I guess that that sort of sphere of things. Um, something that happened after I started in this path that. Surprised me quite pleasantly, um, was that, well, for a little bit of background, I’ve always really liked music and I’ve always wanted to make music, but I’ve never been able to just like, stick with any of the kind of traditional, uh, ways of doing that. Like, I, I would, you know, take lessons in various instruments, but I wouldn’t stick with it. Um. I found like music theory and like learning to read music kind of intimidating. So I never really like got the hang of that super well, but I found that doing creative coding, I. Being part of the Music and Sonic Arts program, I got to take all these music adjacent or just straight up music classes that I wouldn’t have been able to take otherwise, and I didn’t really know that I would necessarily be taking. And I found that that’s opened up a whole new angle to learning and appreciating music for me. Um, sort of learning about the, the, the math behind how we perceive sound and why we like certain kinds of music has been really, I mean, it’s been really cool and it’s provided a different approach to learning about music. I’ve been, uh, doing some audio programming, which feels like an approach to making music that’s very different from the traditional, like instrument pathway mm-hmm. Uh, that a lot of traditional musicians take. Um, and for me, I feel like, like next year I’m thinking about taking a composition class, which is something that I never would’ve thought that I would do, uh, a year ago. So, you know, another year from now who knows what I might be doing thanks to this program. And yeah, I just feel like this really exemplifies the, the sort of beauty and promise of academia where you go to study something and you find things along the way that enrich you and provide new avenues for you to pursue that you never would’ve thought in a million years you would’ve been able to do before. And for me. Uh, I think that’s the true value of the Music and Sonic Arts program. So. 

Erin: It has been really cool. Like, honestly, it’s like, you know, helped me like, discover and build like skills that I had been interested in before, but I hadn’t really like approached too much myself. Mm-hmm. You know, I think in the past, like before I started like doing like creative coding and stuff, like I, um. Was like trying to like do like graph design. You know, I think I was fairly successful, like in graph design. I ended up like, you know, helping like some local brands with like brand identity type stuff, you know? That’s cool. Um, but I don’t know, I real, like, since I had spent a lot of time learning, like, you know, like web design or whatever, I thought like, you know, there’s other ways, other things I could do with it, you know? Mm-hmm. 

Darcy: Future students who would not be attracted to college. At any, in any way, shape or form, get involved with this program?

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Darcy: And they bounce through the program. They get their stackable awards. The certificate can bounce to the associates. And so we do that and we have been doing that beautifully with high numbers. Yeah. Um, and what this gives students is confidence, inspiration, motivation. To, you know, do the college gig, you know, it’s not for everybody. And, um, we, we get students invigorated and excited about where this career can take you. And we do put people to work. I just think the tick boxes that the administration has put down, don’t have a clear picture of how to tick this box.

Miri: This is as incredibly unique. Program, like there is basically nothing else like this in the state. 

Darcy: Correct. In the Pacific Northwest. 

Miri: Because I went to school in Chicago for audio production, and what I really wanted to do was make video games, and do sound programming kind of stuff. And even the expensive Chicago schools didn’t have anything like that. And all the other schools in the state didn’t have anything out like that. So I looked back at what PCC had. I even had a meeting with someone at another school in the state. And they were like, “Well, we don’t really have anything like that. We have the music course and we have the programming course.”

Darcy: Mm-hmm. 

Miri: And then I looked back here where I had gotten my initial associate’s degree and they were like, “Oh yeah, no, we have exactly that. It’s right here. It’s two years long and uh, you’re gonna have a great time.” And I’m like, I guess I’m coming back to PCC. Yeah. There’s a lot of data that this is an effective program and people choose PCC specifically like I did. Because there isn’t anything else. Like, obviously I would’ve rather gotten a bachelor’s degree for the same amount of work that I put into the same kind of thing, but that just isn’t available, There isn’t one for less than $70,000 a year, and those are all either in Los Angeles, or in New York, or out of the country. 

Darcy: Right. 

Miri: There’s nothing similar. 

Darcy: Exactly. I’ve had students come here from Arizona, from California, move here and it’s, it’s really kind of tricky too, because they wanna do this path, the Music Sonic Arts path, and then they wanna transfer to Portland State. And it comes into like if you’re coming here from another state, which I have this discussion often, you have to take eight credits or less ’cause you have to establish residency to then transfer to Portland State for their, um, music production and SAMP program, as they call it, people come from far. But more importantly, you know, it’s for our local people, our local community, to get the skills needed in today’s workforce.

Renee: You know, being in a space like this gives me hope. Right. Like, it gives me hope that like, ’cause you know, all the teachers are like these like kind of oddball misfits who have these like. This weird prestige of like, knowledge from all these different zones of like some academic music, some from like self-taught stuff, some like, you know, self-taught coding stuff and like how this can all intermingle and it, it’s, it’s an empowering, confidence inducing environment to be in that gives me hope to continue educating. ‘Cause I do just want to do that the rest of my life. Like straight up, I want to create art and I want to encourage others who create art because. I think it’s a beautiful part of being alive and being humans, you know? It’s one of the best parts of about that, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. This program, I don’t think I’ve been in an academic environment that has been this encouraging, like including the ones that I teach in, right? Like that has been this encouraging, there’s been this like open-minded that has at the same time pushed people and also. Like not, you know, talk them down or punish them for not doing well enough or whatever. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing, you know, and everyone who comes through this program says it’s amazing. Like, all the professionals outside of this program think it’s amazing. Like my boss at the pizza store who like is a studio recording technician, knows that this program is amazing. And he was talking to me about it, right? Like, this program is like an artistic institution in the city of Portland and like is doing it together to an extent. So like. Yeah, you don’t need to look very hard to find how important this program is to a variety of people, like within the school and outside of the school, and associated with the school and all that stuff. Right. You know? Yeah. What are your other questions? Before I talk for like half an hour? 

Miri: No, that’s perfect. Um. What has been your favorite experience that has been either in or stemming from this program? 

Drusilla: Well, there’s actually too many to name. Like thanks to this program, I got invited to like a film festival to Panorama. Um, and like the film I scored was shown at the Hollywood. 

Miri: Oh, that’s super cool. 

Drusilla: Like, like, I did not think that, and I made, like the things I’ve learned to do, I were like… When I started studying music, a Dream. Like knowing modular sense, understanding like other temperaments. All of these things have just, like, my ability, like I haven’t practiced solfege in a really long time, but my ear is still just so much better because like I was taught sound design and how to like process sound. I was able to work with like you, like that was the last capstone was sick and I loved your part in it and I loved Jackie. Like everyone of the second year was like insane and like watching my work was so inspiring and just like, yeah, a lot of inspiration, a lot of support and understanding and like I came out here, and like if it wasn’t for PCC, if I was in any other place, I would probably not have gotten to a place where I’m comfortable using the pronouns I use and I’m comfortable dressing the way I dress like it. It was very like therapeutic and like especially considering I had awful, I mean, I have a heavy learning disability and like I had an awful school experience, a lot of stress and trauma and like PCC really helped me kind of process that. And that was amazing. Yeah. It’s, or being at in the Sonic Arts program is my favorite part of being in the Sonic Arts program. 

Sam: Yeah. I think probably learning how to solder ’cause it, I feel like it’s just opened up a whole lot of things that I can do on my own. And it’s also a skill that I’ve always wanted to learn, but have been very intimidated by kind of like. My experience learning like music through this program as well. Um, I guess that maybe that would be tied for first, like unconventional music or learning to solder. 

Miri: I, I actually totally agree with the learning to solder. Like I, I had never soldered before. I had like tried and failed once when I was trying to fix a guitar. And then in this class I, or in, in the capstone, I just took over as like the soldering person, like when we had to do the, the one. Like the same thing, 40 different times. I was like, yeah, and I’ll just do it. And I put on my mask and put on my headphones and just played like some death metal and suder for two hours straight. And it was great! 

Sam: I remember a class where I did something very similar except it was, uh, an NWA radio station that I just put on. And I was just like. Jamming out to gangster rap. Mm-hmm. Soldering little microcontrollers. It was, it was blissful. 

Miri: It’s, it’s true hacker core. 

Sam: It really is. 

Darcy: My main job is helping students, um, get into and through and beyond a program off into their next chapter of life. Programs here at PCC go through, you know, twice a year, typically periodic reviews. You know, what the program needs to work on, what the program’s lacking, where this and that, you know, what’s going on with the program; there has been no indication that this program was ever at risk for anything in the tick boxes that the school is asking for.

Miri: And you’re just looking for transparency?

Darcy: Just looking for, um, guidance through what this program needs to do instead of just get on, throw the baby out with the bath water. We just wanna work on stuff to make it better for our community. However, that, whatever that looks like. So, yes, periodic program reviews helps programs stay in tune with what’s needed for the community. And this is coming outta left field that, um. Over the existence of the program, there’s been no indication that it’s been missing anything from its assessments. In my understanding, 

Miri: The response from everyone seems to be just befuddlement, as much as anything else because it does appear to have come out of nowhere. There is a distinct lack of transparency in what the college has put out. And especially from every single student that I’ve heard from, whether past or present or often expecting, you know? 

Darcy: Yeah. 

Miri: People who are like, “Oh, well, I wanted to be part of this program. This is what I was interested in studying here, specifically at Portland Community College. And I guess that’s not gonna be an option.”

Darcy: Actually, yeah. I’ve got, I’ve got tons of, um, several, I haven’t counted them all, but people wanting to get going and get started for fall in the next cohort, you know? I get people every day wanting to start. Um, I get people every day wanting to start. I do information sessions every other week, and I had like 12 students last week just to start for fall. We’re halfway through May. So they’re still pounding the doors to come in and learn the skills needed for the workforce. 

Miri: And I think one thing that is notable about this is I don’t think people are recognizing how specific and unique this program and the outcomes of this program are. Like we have a good theater program, but every school in the state has a good theater program. We have, uh, a good EMT program. A couple other schools have that. A bunch of other schools have nursing programs. The closest thing I can think of is our ASL interpreting program, which is just off the charts incredible compared to everything else in the state, like it is nationally recognized as being a really good program. And so is this one. Yeah. This is something that people don’t get the chance to do at other universities, and especially not on themselves because. some of the materials are really expensive. Some, sometimes they are just multiple thousand dollars pieces of equipment that they don’t get on their own, and they can come here, and work with other people who are as nerdy and passionate and smart as themselves, on something that they wouldn’t get to do anywhere else, would never have gotten to do before. I mean, I was invited to, last year, come to the PCC Gala, specifically because of this program. I was one of two students from my cohort who was invited to the Gala to come and show off the thing that we had made in this program because it’s a weird niche, really cool piece of niche high tech. 

Darcy: Yes. And that’s where the money is in those, those, those creative coding skills and yes, people come from near and far. And people transfer here from Lane, from Clackamas, from Mount Hood, from Clark College, you know, for this program. Oh my gosh. 

Miri: Yeah. So, I mean, I left a university in Chicago to come here instead. ’cause I’m like, actually this is what I wanna do.

Darcy: Cool, cool. 

Miri: Um, and I hope people can come to the next open house if that’s gonna be a thing. 

Darcy: Yeah. I think we have one at the end of spring. Yes.

Miri: I think so. I still go every time.

Darcy: Yeah. 

Miri: Um, even though I haven’t been in the program for a year, I still go to all of ’em and I love seeing the showcases and the uh, yeah. The one that we did in the art gallery last year was super cool and super impressive, and. That was one of the things that was inspiring to me when I started this, right before I started this program. I was like, “Oh, hey look, there’s a, uh, showcase in Paragon Gallery. I’ll go check it out.” And then I went in. I’m like, “Whoa, this stuff is crazy! This is so cool! I don’t understand any of this!” 

Darcy: Yeah. Some people -yes! People thrive here and people, people thrive and, um, you know, make their mark in the world.

Miri: Yeah. 

Darcy: In the industry. 

Miri: I want it to be seen how unique this program is, not just for the outcome, the the products that come from it. But what people get to experience and what people get to make and learning skills that can apply anywhere from the opera to a touring lighting show for a metal band to working at to the- 

Darcy: Sphere in Las Vegas.

Miri: To, yeah, to the sphere, to working at Intel designing motherboards. 

Darcy: Right. Exactly. Yes. 

Miri: These are all things, all things that I learned in just one of my courses, let alone all the JavaScript and the HTML and the backend stuff that I learned. 

Renee: This program has an incredible wealth of resources. Um, like. Knowledge, resources for sure. Like the, the teachers that I’ve studied under have been very broad scope of knowledge. You know, very flexible, very much teachers who want to teach me how to learn and not just like, give me information and I feel I. Especially because a lot of my initial, a lot of my initial classes were in the creative coding pathway. So like, I feel encouraged in a new way that I never thought was possible to just learn tech stuff. Like I think, you know, again, you probably understand this too, that like same with music, a lot of tech stuff is very gate kept, very brewery like a lot of people talk people down and like it doesn’t need to be that way, right? Like there are. I’m never gonna be like this amazing programmer that like comes up with novel algorithms for the government. I don’t want to be that, right? Like, I don’t think anyone here wants to be that. Um, like, but that doesn’t matter because there’s all these amazing things we can do with this incredible technology we have. And like so much computer science that’s taught kind of flushes that out of people, you know, it’s just like, no, we’re not, we’re, we’re not gonna like. Create a cool like sequencer or whatever. We’re not gonna teach you how to make us synthesize that. We’re gonna teach you how to like, create a database for a used car dealership, you know? The other thing is the physical resources the space has is incredible. Like, I’ve like created compositions for 32 speaker arrays, which is unbelievable. Like, that has been incredible experience. Like, the recording studio here is incredible. Like, the community of musicians around me and artists and coders is incredible. All with their different knowledge and their different skill sets. Like I feel like I’ve grown a lot as a person and I haven’t even been here that long, you know? And it, this is like, you know, my third term I think, and that’s what I’ve gotten out the program, I think. 

Miri: That’s awesome. Thank you so much! So finally, What do you think about the, uh, decision to try and close this program? 

Renee: I mean, so. I actually got the email separate to a lot of the other students because I, I got a different email ’cause I’m technically part of faculty too. Like, I’m a teaching assistant, which is great. You know, I, I love being that. Um, and the way that they spelled it out in the email, I was like, okay, this vaguely makes sense, right? Like, if you’re trying to audit programs that claim to be full, like job placement and you can’t find evidence of that, then like, yeah, maybe you want to like toss up what that program is doing. But I think that it’s like. Jumping to an extreme, you know? Like where they could be restructuring things. They are choosing just to ask all of these resources, all this amazing knowledge, this amazing community, and they’re not applying the same rubric to other programs that have the same issues, right? Multimedia is a very similar boat. They offer an associate’s degree and there are no, I mean there are, I’m not gonna say there no job listings like this. I’m not an expert at this, but I’ll be shocked if that were job listings saying, “Hey, we need an associate’s degree in multimedia for you to get this job.” That doesn’t exist. That’s not what these programs are about, right? Because like anyone who works in the creative field will tell you like, it’s not about the pieces of paper you have, it’s about the skills you have and your demonstration of those, and your networking and your portfolio and all of this stuff. Right? Which is all stuff that this school works on teaching you, you know?

Darcy: You know, it’s it, it has high enrollment, it brings students back on campus. Which was Benning’s main goal, everybody back in person. Boom. Vibrancy here for the community, for the students in the rooms, in the hallways. Learning how to collaborate with projects and such. If you go into any other building on this campus, it’s crickets. It’s crickets. Um, so I invite people to come and see what’s going on and what’s at stake. 

Miri: When I was in the program, I know probably half of the people in my cohort, including myself, came into the room not during class hours and not even during the official post class lab hours to get stuff done and to work together and to hang out. 

Darcy: Yes! 

Miri: Which wasn’t the case in any of my other classes. 

Darcy: Yeah. Yes. And I think, um, some other people have mentioned the, the relationships and friendships and, um, network that’s created here that is lifelong, and very needed for creative industry. 

Miri: Yeah. What do you think about the decision to try and shut down the Music Sonic Arts program?

Drusilla: I don’t have a non-cynical way of saying it. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Drusilla: It feels like a result of human greed. I don’t wanna like insult the people that are responsible of, if you could bleed that out. Yeah. Um, like again, there’s no reason. The appeal was great and it was, it was supposed to pass, like there was so much just like bureaucracy, like gathered for it. Like if they do close it, they are like very much active committing a criminal act. Yeah, I can’t. That’s- 

Miri: I gotcha. 

Drusilla: Yeah. I hope, I hope that the, yeah, that’s all I can… 

Darcy: Cutting the certificate and AAS degree in Music and Sonic Arts would also undercut Oregon’s 40 40 20 goal. The music, Sonic Arts degree and certificate embedded provide direct proven stackable awards that pipeline to Portland State University SAMP Program. They just happened to name their program “Sonic Arts and Music Production.” Very different thing off of ours. 

Miri: Totally different. 

Darcy: Yes. There was a, they came knocking at our door saying, let’s build a pipeline. This is a needed industry. We need workers for this industry. So this expands access. Access to higher education and lifting students who may not have imagined themselves pursuing any kind of school credential, a college credential.

Renee: It goes against the supposed fiscal sustainability plan that the college is using as the rubric of decision making, because that program has written into it things around anti-racism, around equity, around all these things that, like. Having a music and sonic arts program like this, like I, you know, I tell my students all the time that like a history of contemporary music is, it’s a history of black music, it’s a history of Latin music. It’s a history of like all these music from different cultures that are historically extremely underrepresented in academia, and especially in academic music programs. Like, there’ll be like a footnote or something and like as a result of this, these programs are more accessible and more interesting to like, you know, people who come from other cultures other than like the very normative white cultures that get pushed into music programs. And I know this as someone who is friends with the former head of music at Jefferson High, that like large group of that population is black and was coming here for these programs is gonna lose access to them. So yeah, no, it flies in the face of that stuff. Like I think it’s kind of gross and I don’t understand why it’s happening, you know? That’s what I think about it. 

Sam: Yeah. Also, I just feel like, like to be the people who are canceling a music program, like that’s like shorthand for evil. Like that’s like Dirty Dancing [bleep]. Like you’re like the, the town preacher that hates music and happiness. Like what the [bleep], who wants to be on that side? Like, 

Miri: Yeah, right? 

Sam: Like it’s just so like cartoonishly evil to try to cancel a music program, especially one that, like. Serves so many people who are like, you know, coming out of high school and can’t afford to go to like traditional college, so they get to do like a two year degree. Like you’re, you’re literally trying to cancel a music program for like underserved people slash like, people who can’t afford a traditional college degree. Like, that’s just like laughably evil. So yeah, I guess that’s what I would conclude with. Mm-hmm. Do the right thing. 

Miri: Yeah, right? 

Sam: Ugh. 

Darcy: The program, um, just invested a great chunk of money into equipment approved by the Perkins Grant, not even the school funding. It’s, uh, the different funding grant for career tech programs. And that equipment was just approved a few months ago. And so here we go. What- what does- where is the disconnect? You know? That cannot be replaced or rehoused or reused? 

Sam: Yeah. 

Darcy: And it’s coming like from Sweden, you know, on a ship, and they need special installers. And three years ago, the State of Oregon Department of Ed, through the Higher Education Coordinating Commission, did a video campaign for this program. 

Miri: Oh yeah? 

Darcy: And it’s a student talking about the program and music production and all the jobs. It shows a huge disconnect in, um, what PCC sees and what a larger body around education sees in the state. What’s interesting in the decision planning and, um, administrative thing, there’s not even a, a willingness to, uh, take our suggestions to save money from the program or just to, uh, streamline it more or whatever, you know. Every program is tasked with saving money. 

Miri: Yeah, always. 

Darcy: We love that. Our, our appeal, and I speak for the department here, the appeal is very sound and has great ideas to shave money, but that seem to be falling on Deaf ears. Like all the other 14 programs that were on the, on the table to be chopped, they all got a chance to, uh, reassess, you know, what’s going on. And it just feels very personal. But the way things happen around PCC typically take a while. This is sudden and overnight and without discussion. 

Miri: I first heard about it not even two weeks ago? I think?

Darcy: And what’s really tragic is what the, um, administration sent a letter out to the students prior to the right when the appeal process started. Mm-hmm. So that says one thing, we’ll give you time to do an appeal, but no, we’re telling all your students that this is it, one and done. And that is ruined morale, scared students for, you know, what’s up with that. 

Miri: It. Yeah. 

Darcy: That was, you know, to totally uncalled for. And, um, 

Miri: It isn’t, I, I, I’ve been at PCC for 10 years. I started in fall 2015, so almost 10 years now. 

Darcy: Mm-hmm. 

Miri: And I’ve never seen anything like this. 

Darcy: Like this. Right. Yes. And, you know, working here with many departments, many programs, I, I’ve never felt abandoned and non-supported in a department and leadership. It seems like the decision was made beforehand. And where’s our leaders? You don’t see them at the open houses. You don’t see them wandering the halls here. 

Miri: And I would love for them to come. I think, I think if you are in the board, come to one of the open houses. You’ll talk to some really cool, really smart people who are gonna be really sad that this is gone. 

Darcy: Are shaping the future. Yeah. And shaping the future. 

Miri: And absolutely shaping the future, coming up with all sorts of things I could never even imagine. Like there’s a, um, There’s a Deaf student. In the cohort right now, 

Darcy: Right. 

Miri: Who is working with, uh, yeah. His name’s Dillan, he’s super cool and one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. 

Darcy: Yes. 

Miri: Um, and he is- 

Darcy: He’s a designer. 

Miri: Yeah. He, he, he’s a music designer. He’s building, from scratch, ways for music and music software to communicate in an accessible level with Deaf people, which is something I almost never see from actual Deaf people. It’s almost always from hearing people like, “Oh, I want to share music with Deaf people.” But this is someone who is Deaf and like, oh yeah, no, this is how I want to interact with this. 

Darcy: Right.

So, yeah. Dillan is an accessible technology development. Um, entrepreneur, who creates, he uses these skills for everyone to be more accessible in life. 

Miri: The following is an exact replication of an interpretation from a professional interpreter. Um, so I just want to ask your name and your pronouns and your, um, major here.

Dillan: Okay. Uh, my name is Dillan Simone. I, and I use, he Uh, my, my major is Sonic Arts and I’m Deaf, but I am able to access the class and, you know, use lots of different technology, like these mini controllers that we have right down here. They connect to microphones and analyze the sound and can actually have an effect on the colors. And that way, you know, that Deaf people can understand the spirit of music that way. So I take a ton of classes. Um, I got my first degree, uh, AS degree, and then I also work at CymaSpace, which is a nonprofit organization led by Deaf people. And, um. Uh, this is a really great, uh, field and that there are a lot of jobs and people who are really interested in graduates from our programs. People who have knowledge, knowledge using this technology, and it really benefits all of our work here.

Miri: Uh, what’s been your favorite experience, either in or stemming from the, uh, the program so far?

Dillan: So far my favorite. Experience was, um, probably teachers from other classes having asked me to, uh, go into their classes and actually develop some technology for, um, for, uh, Deaf people. That will be, you know, something really interesting for the community, 

Miri: Awesome. So what do you think about the attempting to close the Music Sonic Arts program?

Dillan: I was very shocked. I mean, it’s been a huge return on investment. It’s been really positive. This program, um, there’s a lot of people who have heard of the music classes that are really fun. You know, I, I know all of our classes are generally very full. Um, so I was really shocked to hear that. And, you know, people who are looking for employees, uh, out in the community, really want people for this program. So I was very surprised to hear, um, that there was a question about job availability and all of that. So. Um, people who, um, you know, are looking for employees, want someone who have, has those video skills, those technology skills, and that’s what they’re teaching here in this program is, uh, you know, the skills we need to be out in the, in the job place.

Miri: Awesome. And he wouldn’t get to do that anywhere else. I mean, like, he could go to, to U of O and study programming. Yeah. Or he could go to U of O and study music. 

Darcy: Right? They they do, they’re they’re, they are planning to transfer. They’re a great resource. Um, they wrote a great letter and, you know, very, very forward thinking. and on the cusp of, you know, what you and I able-bodied people, you know, don’t consider in our everyday life. So we’re grateful to have ’em. 

Miri: Yeah. And it would just be a shame to lose that. 

Darcy: Mm-hmm. And, um, it does house one of the only classes that have AI and machine learning in the title. Knock, knock, knock on the door, what’s coming down the pike everywhere? AI! And this is a trendsetting program and a trailblazer program if you just examine what’s going on at the World Economic Forum website. Um, we need coders. We need, um, people to run technical skills and creative skills to help data be dispersed. 

Miri: And even within PCCs own hierarchy, they just announced the new Associate Vice President of IT, who is this big AI guy and is planning on integrating AI into all sorts of things, whether or not you think that’s a good thing. 

Darcy: We just have to be aware. We have to be aware and conscious of the technologies going on today. We’re not pushing anything, we’re not advocating for anything. But I don’t know. I remember when the calculator came out, just about, and you know what? Look at us now. You can’t poo poo technology. You have to be aware and informed. 

Miri: And this program has that at such a more basic and approachable level that, I mean, if you look at computer science or computer system information courses, you don’t get anything like that. Even automation up until probably the three or 400 levels most of the time. Wow. Oh wow. When. That was one of the first things I learned in Microcontrollers 1, which is, what is that? That’s MS161 or something. 

Darcy: MUC282 

Miri: Yeah, exactly. Of course you, you would know that at the top of your head. 

Darcy: Yeah. 

Miri: This program and that class, specifically, is how I learned to understand for loops, something fundamental to programming that I’d taken other programming classes and I’m like, I just don’t get it.

Darcy: Right. You did a lot of, uh, you just jumped out of that. Yeah. We have another student transferring to OIT for, um, their Computer Science program. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. 

Darcy: This is a springboard to many opportunities. And people are going to PSU for music business, you know, very needed in the industry, so. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. It’s a strange thing to be targeting so specifically, especially when there is no redundancy of this program in, in the state, 

Darcy: There’s no redundancy, right. And it, you know, people try to, and our, our equipment is top notch. Our spaces are top notch and we are not an expensive program. Don’t get me wrong. This is equipment that has been brought to us through the state for, um, teaching these skills. Just like welding gets, uh, welding booths and equipment, um, just like graphic design gets some computer software, just like nursing gets, um, all their lab and such, you know, those extraneous tools and hardware, software and equipment needing needed to teach the, the trades and the skills that the, that people seeking a two year credential or less need to. Be successful in the industry. You know, building construction tech, um, a landscape tech, all these, there’s about 50 career tech programs here at PCC. 

Miri: Well, I wonder if the perception is that this is a weird offshoot of the music classes. 

Darcy: That’s interesting you say that. The music, the classical Western traditional music program that is housed at other campuses and a lot of their courses are remote and online, has lost a lot of enrollment. You’ll see people flocking over here to take our theory sequence, housed right here out of the campus here. And those numbers were. presented but not looked at. You know, we really fill up this building every term, three sections of the, the first year sequences with wait lists up to 20 people. And I think last year, in fall there were like 17 people in one of the theory classes that, you know. One section not even filling up. So it’s clear that people want modern day music making skills. It’d be, it’d be counterproductive to force people back into a pathway that doesn’t have such successful results. 

Miri: Which is what a certain educational body had offered me, instead of what PCC offered me, they were like, yeah, we have a music program. Is that what you want? I’m like, no. Mm-hmm.  

Darcy: I already, you know, the creative skills are found here. Uh, the tools, the software, the programs processing, um, jitter. Um, AR, using Arduinos, and, you know, Max MSP and all those things that people use to make content, you know, for your cars, for your tv, for your streaming device, for your phone. I mean, come on. 

Miri: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or even for live shows. Live shows in touring bands. Like I know exactly. I know touring musicians who control everything from. From custom Ableton patches that they’ve made themselves in Max. 

Darcy: Yeah. 

Miri: Which I learned how to do here. 

Darcy: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s really, I work with the success stories every day. You know, ending the Music/Sonic degrees and certificates would be like removing a chair from the table of opportunity for Portland area youth. For many of the high school students who come here through our doors, this is not just a college program, it’s their first and only real connection to higher education. It’s where their interest in learning is sparked, often for the first time. This hands-on program is an in-person program and it’s housed at the Moriarty Arts and Humanities Building at Cascade Campus. 

Miri: The music and Sonic Arts program means a whole lot to a whole lot of people. While its fate is currently unknown, it’s clear that this program has been something special to everyone who’s been through it. Everyone I got to talk to today plus the dozens of others with whom I didn’t get the chance, has such unique insights and perspectives on what they’ve learned and gained through the Music and Sonic Arts program. Hopefully within a couple weeks we’ll find out for sure what will happen. Until then. I’ve been Miri Newman, and this has been, Let’s Talk!

Closing Disclaimer

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk! – Portland Community College’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the PCC Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, X-Ray 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio 90.7 FM.